Two Questions from Last Game

[tnelson_2000]

Our Men's Industrial League is using ASA rules. I'm unable to find a rule book, so I would like your input on these two incidents.

1)R1 on 1B, 1 out. BR hits line-drive to F6. F6 intentionally drops the ball and turns 6-4-3 double play. Is this a legal play? The umpire didn't really know what to call, so she let the play stand.

2)R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. 1 out. BR hits fly ball to F9. R1 thinking there was 2 out, ran on contact. F9 catches and throws ball to 1B for a double-play and the 3rd out. Meanwhile R1 crosses homeplate before throw gets to 1B. Does the run count?

Thanks for any input.

Terry Nelson

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by tnelson_2000

1)R1 on 1B, 1 out. BR hits line-drive to F6. F6 intentionally drops the ball and turns 6-4-3 double play. Is this a legal play?

Define "intentionally drop". If the ball is allowed to drop or the player guides the ball to the ground, there is not problem here. An intentional drop can only take place if F6 actually caught the ball and then dropped it.

2)R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. 1 out. BR hits fly ball to F9. R1 thinking there was 2 out, ran on contact. F9 catches and throws ball to 1B for a double-play and the 3rd out. Meanwhile R1 crosses homeplate before throw gets to 1B. Does the run count?

Yes.

[greymule]

tnelson, in your second play, if after 3 are out the defense appeals successfully that R1 left too soon, R1's run would be nullified. The umpire will recognize a fourth out in the inning. If they don't know to appeal, however, the run does indeed count.

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Define "intentionally drop". If the ball is allowed to drop or the player guides the ball to the ground, there is not problem here. An intentional drop can only take place if F6 actually caught the ball and then dropped it.

**What's to define? How can someone "guide" a LINE DRIVE to the ground without touching it? It wasn't a popup. Dead ball, batter's out, no double play.

Yes.

[tnelson_2000]

Thank you for the replies.

In the first case, the ball hit F6's glove, then he spread his arms out to let it hit the ground. He then picked it up and threw to 2B. My feeling was that it should be a dead ball.

IRISHMAFIA, do you now concur with bluezebra? Would this be a judgement call on the umpire's part?

Terry

Question 1
If you determine that the ball was dropped with the intent of turning a DP? Dead ball and BR is out.



[Edited by goldcoastump on Aug 4th, 2004 at 04:14 PM]

[greymule]

the ball hit F6's glove, then he spread his arms out to let it hit the ground

Did it hit inside the glove, where the ball is normally caught? Or did F6 stop it with the side of his glove?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by tnelson_2000
Thank you for the replies.

In the first case, the ball hit F6's glove, then he spread his arms out to let it hit the ground. He then picked it up and threw to 2B. My feeling was that it should be a dead ball.

IRISHMAFIA, do you now concur with bluezebra? Would this be a judgement call on the umpire's part?

Terry

Yes, it is a judgment call, but I do not agree with BZ because he is wrong as far as ASA is concerned.

Merely touching the ball is completely irrelevant to the call and you would think a veteran umpire would know that by now.

ASA POE #29 INTENTIONALLY DROPPED BALL
The ball cannot be intentionally dropped unless the fielder has actually caught and then dropped it. Merely guiding the ball to the ground should not be considered an intentionally dropped ball.

For an umpire, on of the best indicators for this play is to think of the play without the IDB in effect. If you, as the umpire, would not call the batter out based on the fielder's handling of the batted ball, than it cannot be an IDB.

The key to avoiding such a play is to have the BR actually run. If the BR isn't going to give it their all, then the offense doesn't deserve the protection.

I think everyone needs to read the first situation clearly before making the call. As I read it, the runner from 3B is the one leaving as the ball is hit, not the one from 1B. Means F9 threw it to first base for no reason. He should have thrown to 3B. Sounds like a goof-up on the defense's part, or maybe the poster's got it mixed up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
I think everyone needs to read the first situation clearly before making the call. As I read it, the runner from 3B is the one leaving as the ball is hit, not the one from 1B. Means F9 threw it to first base for no reason. He should have thrown to 3B. Sounds like a goof-up on the defense's part, or maybe the poster's got it mixed up.

I think, and responded in the manner, that the poster just mixed up his runners.

BTW, it was the second situation.

[CecilOne]

If you interpret the case as the runner from 1st left early and was out on the double play and the runner from 3rd left and scored after tagging but before the out, the run counts unless an appeal is upheld on the tag up at 3rd.

If you interpret the case as the runner from 3rd left early and so did the runner from 1st and the runner from 1st was out on the double play; then the run counts unless an appeal is upheld on the tag up at 3rd.

If you interpret the case as the runner from 3rd left early but not the runner from 1st; then you have wasted play at 1st, still 2 outs, the run counts unless an appeal is upheld on the tag up at 3rd.

If you interpret the case as the runner from 3rd left early but not the runner from 1st; and the throw resulted in the runner from 1st being tagged out; then if the runner from 3rd left and scored after tagging but before the out; then the run counts unless an appeal is upheld on the tag up at 3rd.

BTW, the effect of IDB is IDB, no outs possible because the defense is playing with the runner(s)' mind(?); but that also means no advance on defense misplays after the drop. It should be a DDB like OBS. The batter is out anyway because of the catch/

[Edited by CecilOne on Aug 5th, 2004 at 11:17 AM]