ASA OBS call then no call leads to ejection

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Robmoz
(Sorry for the italics, I could not figure out how to change it.)

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[Dakota]

Originally posted by Robmoz
Q. If the umpire determines that a triple is probable and B1 decides to round and go for home only to be tagged out does B1 get the call for OBS and safe?

As a judgment situation, I am looking for a guide in determining how far do I protect the runner (specifically when OBS at 1B). Are you saying I must go all the way to the base that B1 is attempting to attain?

This is getting close to the perennial discussion of whether the judgment is made at the time of the OBS and not changed thereafter, or whether the judgment is allowed to change based on how the play unfolds.

I believe the latter makes much more sense.

However, if I recall older discussions correctly, the official interp from the ASA is the former. That would make it very difficult to protect a runner to home based on an OBS between home and 1st. An inside the park home run (without errors on the defense) is just not that common.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Robmoz


It seems too difficult to determine if the runner would have gained 4 bases had there been no OBS at 1B (gapper notwithstanding).

Q. If the umpire determines that a triple is probable and B1 decides to round and go for home only to be tagged out does B1 get the call for OBS and safe?

As a judgment situation, I am looking for a guide in determining how far do I protect the runner (specfically when OBS at 1B). Are you saying I must go all the way to the base that B1 is attempting to attain?

This is going to open a pandora's box, but you MAY want to follow the runner and see where he is when the fielder begins the initial play of returning the ball to the infield in their attempt to put out the obstructed runner.
On a ball not readily fielded, I actually start working backward from home. IOW, my immediate determination MAY be based on the belief that some runners may go all the way if the fielder doesn't catch up to the ball and then trim it back using what I know about the runner and fielder's abilities.

This is NOT to be confused with adjusting offered protection based on subsequent plays or errors made after you as the umpire has already made a determination of which base you are protecting a certain obstructed runner.

[DaveASA/FED]

ChampaignBlue,
You hit my point right on the head. BU never stated he saw any adverse affects to the runner by the catcher blocking the plate. That is what I did not like, the way he described it he called OBS soley on F2 being on the plate. And as you said I feel that is a misapplication of the rule, if she did not cause the runner to do something then there was no OBS.

[CecilOne]

I agree with "the latter makes much more sense" in "whether the judgment is made at the time of the OBS and not changed thereafter, or whether the judgment is allowed to change based on how the play unfolds."

I copied and slightly edited my comment from an earlier topic:

"there are two aspects of the effect of obstruction.

One is that the runner can not be putout in between the bases where the OBS occurred. That is, if runner was obstructed between 2nd and 3rd, the runner can not be put out between 2nd and 3rd. The runner could be put out between 3rd and home.

The other is that the obstructed runner will be awarded the base the umpire JUDGED the runner would have reached if there was no obstruction. This can get complicated, but in the simple case where the runner is apparently put out in a close play at a base, the runner should be awarded that base because the umpire JUDGED the runner would have reached that base if there was no obstruction.

That is, if a runner is obstructed between 2nd and 3rd, then "tagged out" in a close play at home; the runner should be awarded home. In the above, "a close play" is determined by the runner being out by a margin equal to or less than the delay caused by the obstruction.

The above runner is also guaranteed not being put out between 2nd and 3rd, so if the runner falls down before 3rd and is tagged the runner is not out. The ball is then dead and the umpire awards the runner 3rd base if the umpire JUDGED the runner would have reached that base if there was no obstruction or 2nd if the umpired JUDGED otherwise. "


I can't see determining a "protected to" base at the moment of the OBS, for the same reason that you can't tell a single from a double when the ball is struck. Many things affect the outcome and can't all be calculated at the beginning like a video game. Yes, we have to consider if a runner tried something different because they were obstructed; but in general runners get where they were trying to anyway and all we have to do is add the delay time.

[ChampaignBlue]

I like Mike's philosophy, gapper hit to the fence while defence is playing in. BR tripped rounding 1st and falls to knees. Home run is in my head. I see that runner isn't all that fast and defence is recovering the ball well, back it off to a triple. BR reaches 3rd left arm drops and whatever happens after is whatever happens.

[SouthPaw]

Speaking of ejections, I have a question . . .

I was invloved in a nice "collision" a few years back. I was rounding 3rd & a pretty big guy was about 5 feet up the base line waiting to catch the ball. He was in the baseline & if I avoided him it would slow me down & could possibly be tagged out. So I went into him full force & we both kind of flew back a few feet. Needless to say a fist-a-cuffs started & much blood was shed. When order was restored, to my surprise, no one was thrown out of the game (maybe because it was a playoff game?) I was called out for interference even though I pled my case that he was blocking the path to the plate without the ball. As fate would have it I came up in the 7th & hit a game winning 3 run homer. I am just wondering how other umpires would have handled it or if any of you have seen the same situation? Thanks!!

[mcrowder]

You would have been ejected at the first sign of "fisticuffs" in any game, by any umpire on the planet, with the singular exception of the guy you had that day.

You would have been ejected (and called out) by many of the umpires, if not most, at the point of collision, if it was determined that you plowed him intentionally.

And my league would have likely suspended you for the season (or remainder of the playoffs) for the fisticuffs.

Count yourself amazingly lucky to have even been in the ballpark to come up to bat again.

You HAVE to try to avoid him - if the fielder made you alter your course, he's guilty of obstruction.

[SouthPaw]

Thanks for the info mcrowder,

I was shocked as could be that I wasn't ejected, but in my defense he threw the first punch. The poor umpire was so confused by the whole thing that he said if he threw one guy out he would have to throw every guy out since everyone was fighting. The ironic thing was that the other team was full of police officers & firefighters. What are the rules on incidental contact? I was involved in another situation where I hit a ball down the right field line & was rounding second & headed to 3rd. as I made the turn I looked back to see where the ball was. When I looked back towards 3rd the SS was about a foot in front of me just standing in the baseline. There was nothing I could do but put my arms up to soften the blow. Needless to say at 6'2" 225, I knocked the guy about 6 feet back & he landed flat on his back. The other team got a little heated but the umpire quickly de-fused the situation & said that the SS was standing in the base path therefore I did nothing wrong. After the inning I went up & asked the SS if he was alright. He said that it was his fault & it was the first time he had ever played in the infield. Would most of you handle the situation the same? I am a passive, clean player & in 11 years of playing, these are the only 2 incidents I have been in.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SouthPaw
Thanks for the info mcrowder,

I was shocked as could be that I wasn't ejected, but in my defense he threw the first punch. The poor umpire was so confused by the whole thing that he said if he threw one guy out he would have to throw every guy out since everyone was fighting. The ironic thing was that the other team was full of police officers & firefighters.

Do not care who they are, anyone who left their position or the bench area to participate would have been ejected. The policeman and firefighters may have even been punished by their commanders/supervisors at their regular job if the team was tied into their positions. Don't scoff, I've seen it happen. Especially in today's world, any government agency gets a black eye when things like this happen and sometimes do not hesitate to reprimand those involved.

What are the rules on incidental contact? I was involved in another situation where I hit a ball down the right field line & was rounding second & headed to 3rd. as I made the turn I looked back to see where the ball was. When I looked back towards 3rd the SS was about a foot in front of me just standing in the baseline. There was nothing I could do but put my arms up to soften the blow.

If it seemed that your action was to avoid the collision, it would probably only be an obstruction call. If you didn't attempt to check-up and it seemed to the umpire that your action was more toward bracing yourself for a collision (crossing your arms, lowering a shoulder, etc.), you may get dumped.

Needless to say at 6'2" 225, I knocked the guy about 6 feet back & he landed flat on his back. The other team got a little heated but the umpire quickly de-fused the situation & said that the SS was standing in the base path therefore I did nothing wrong. After the inning I went up & asked the SS if he was alright. He said that it was his fault & it was the first time he had ever played in the infield. Would most of you handle the situation the same? I am a passive, clean player & in 11 years of playing, these are the only 2 incidents I have been in.

And if the umpire knows you and the manner in which you play, it may help, but it doesn't necessarily justify it.

Even with the assumption that you did nothing wrong as indicated here, you have to consider what the umpire is seeing and the fact that folks have to get up and go to school, work or whatever the next morning and that this is supposed to be recreational ball. The rules are there to protect the players and sometimes even completely innocent acts call for a ruling which may not be popular. Even when the other guy/gal may have been in the wrong place does not justify what might happen on a ball field.

Many of these rules are in place more as a deterent than to be an imposition upon the players. Unfortunately, there are some out there who play like the world will come to an end if they do not win a simple game.

[ChampaignBlue]

" He was in the baseline & if I avoided him it would slow me down & could possibly be tagged out."

That's the key here, you admit that you had a choice. If you had taken the option of avoiding him, I protect you. You chose the dark side and opted for a collision which I'm guessing slowed you down much more than changing your path. In my game you're out and possibly ejected at that point. The instant that I see a fist the player can start for the parking lot, I don't care who started it.

[TexBlue]

I agree with the others. When you two get tired and stop fighting, I'll throw you out. No place for fisticuffs on the softball field. While I know a lot of the more competitive teams are mainling adrenalin, it's still a game and absolutely no place for fights.

[SouthPaw]

You are right ChampaignBlue,

I did have a choice. I guess I should have trusted that the umpire would have made the correct call. Sometimes you don't always think clearly in the heat of the moment. It was a pretty cheezy league in Carlsbad, Ca & none of the umpires were that great. That is probably why he let the situation get out of control & there were no consequences for our actions. On the flip side, I have seen umpires rule with an iron fist & command respect from players (which is what I prefer). I have seen umpires throw players out of games without a warning for saying the F-word. Heck, a few years ago I watched an umpire throw a guy out for faking a tag at second.

[Skahtboi]

I can't believe that the umpire didn't toss everyone involved in the fight. Sheesh.