double base

[jggilliam]

When using the double base in USSSA and ASA, is it an automatic call if the batter runner uses the white base instead of the orange base, or does the defensive team have to make an appeal to the umpire? Also, on a ball hit to right field that creates a play at first, does the offense still use the orange base and the defense use the white base or does it change since the ball is coming from the outfield instead of the infield? Thanks

Greg

[UmpireErnie]

Speaking ASA this is an appeal play and is treated just like missing the base. The appeal must be made by the defense prior to the BR returning to the white portion of 1B.

(ASA 8-2-M.2.)


On a throw from right field (fair ground) the defense still uses the white portion and the offense runs to/thru the orange portion. It does not change becuase it is coming from the outfeild. The only time it changes is when it comes from the foul side of first base or when a bad throw pulls the feilder off the base into the path of the runner. Then either team can use either portion of the base.

(ASA 8-2-M.3.)

Ernie
Anchorage, AK

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by jggilliam
Also, on a ball hit to right field that creates a play at first, does the offense still use the orange base and the defense use the white base or does it change since the ball is coming from the outfield instead of the infield? Thanks

Greg

ASA 8.2.M.2
"Whenever a play is being made by an infielder on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion."

So, though it is safer and will probably occur that each will use their own portion, it is not mandatory that they do on a ball coming back from an outfielder.

[James V]

So, which is it?

Umpire Ernie - "Throws from outfield require offense to use orange and defense to use white"

or

IrishMafia - "So, though it is safer and will probably occur that each will use their own portion, it is not mandatory that they do on a ball coming back from an outfielder."

Jim

[Shmuelg]

FWIW, as far as ISF is concerned, Rule 2, Sec.4h-1 states (bold by me):

"NOTE: THE FOLLOWING RULES APPLY TO THE DOUBLE BASE:
a) A batted ball hitting the fair portion is declared fair, and a batted ball hitting the foul portion only is declared foul.
b) If a play is made at first base on any batted ball, or (FP ONLY) the batter runs on a dropped third strike, and the batter-runner touches only the fair portion, and if the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base, the batter-runner is out.

NOTE: This is treated the same as missing the base.

c) A defensive player must use only the fair portion of the base at all times.

EXCEPTION: On any live ball play made from first base foul territory, the batter-runner and the defensive player may use either base.

d) After over-running the base, the batter-runner must return to the fair portion.
e) On balls hit to the outfield when there is no play being made at the double base, the batter-runner may touch either portion of the base.
f) When tagging up on a fly ball, the fair portion must be used.
g) On an attempted pick-off play, the runner must return to the fair portion.
h) Once a runner returns to the fair portion, should he stand on the foul portion only, it is considered not in contact with the base and the runner shall be called out, if
1) He is tagged with the ball, or
2) He leads off from the foul portion on a pitched ball.

So, I understand that according to ISF, if the ball is hit to the outfield, and there is a play at first, the runner must use the orange base.

[Shmuelg]

Oh, and if he uses the white base, it is an appeal play.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA 8.2.M.2
"Whenever a play is being made by an infielder on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion."

So, though it is safer and will probably occur that each will use their own portion, it is not mandatory that they do on a ball coming back from an outfielder. [/B]

infield play is the key

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Shmuelg
FWIW, as far as ISF is concerned, Rule 2, Sec.4h-1 states (bold by me):

"NOTE: THE FOLLOWING RULES APPLY TO THE DOUBLE BASE:
a) A batted ball hitting the fair portion is declared fair, and a batted ball hitting the foul portion only is declared foul.
b) If a play is made at first base on any batted ball, or (FP ONLY) the batter runs on a dropped third strike, and the batter-runner touches only the fair portion, and if the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base, the batter-runner is out.

NOTE: This is treated the same as missing the base.

c) A defensive player must use only the fair portion of the base at all times.

EXCEPTION: On any live ball play made from first base foul territory, the batter-runner and the defensive player may use either base.

d) After over-running the base, the batter-runner must return to the fair portion.
e) On balls hit to the outfield when there is no play being made at the double base, the batter-runner may touch either portion of the base.
f) When tagging up on a fly ball, the fair portion must be used.
g) On an attempted pick-off play, the runner must return to the fair portion.
h) Once a runner returns to the fair portion, should he stand on the foul portion only, it is considered not in contact with the base and the runner shall be called out, if
1) He is tagged with the ball, or
2) He leads off from the foul portion on a pitched ball.

So, I understand that according to ISF, if the ball is hit to the outfield, and there is a play at first, the runner must use the orange base.

This is true, but ISF rules are set for four-year periods, so we'll see what happens with the 2006-2009 rule book. ASA just added "an infielder" this past off-season.

BTW, I would expect that ISF will also afford the EP a reentry in that book also.

[Shmuelg]

Mike,

We don't play SP, but I looked it up, and the gurus at the ISF say (Rule 1):

"Sec. 37. ILLEGAL RE-ENTRY.
An Illegal Re-entry occurs when
a. A starting player returns to the game a second time after twice being substituted.
b. The EP (SP ONLY) returns to the game after being substituted.
c. A starting player returns to the game after being substituted but not in his original position in the offensive lineup.
d. A substitute who has legally been in the game returns to the game after being replaced by either the original starting player or another substitute.
e. The DEFO (FP ONLY) is placed into the batting order in a position other than that of the starting DP.
f. The starting DP (FP ONLY) is placed into the batting order in a position other than his original starting position."

So, it looks like once the EP is removed, he's gone.

[UmpireErnie]

Good call, Mike. My bad, that is a change this year.

James, IrishMafia is right.

On a ball coming from an outfielder on fair ground, the defense still has to use the white portion but the BR may use either portion.

If the outfielder's throw is somehow coming from foul ground; or if the outfielder's throw is errent and pulls the defender at 1B off the bag; offense and defense can use either portion. (This part is same for throw from and infielder or outfielder.)

All good, Mike? :-)

Ernie

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by UmpireErnie
Good call, Mike. My bad, that is a change this year.

James, IrishMafia is right.

On a ball coming from an outfielder on fair ground, the defense still has to use the white portion but the BR may use either portion.

If the outfielder's throw is somehow coming from foul ground; or if the outfielder's throw is errent and pulls the defender at 1B off the bag; offense and defense can use either portion. (This part is same for throw from and infielder or outfielder.)

All good, Mike? :-)

Ernie

Yeppers!