Double First Base (ASA Rules)

[Toon Army]

The following occurred during a U-12 Girls Fastpitch game:

B1 hits ball down the line to F3. F3 has ball go off glove into foul territory. F3 recovers in time to grab ball in barehand and place ball in hand on the orange part of 1st base prior to B1 reaching the base. The umpire rules that B1 is safe due to F3 touching orange part of base and not the white part. The 2004 rule book has a section stating that on a play from foul territory that F3 may use the orange part of the base. Umpire rule that this would apply in the case of a dropped third strike and the throw coming from the catcher. If F3 reached across to the white part of the base then she would have created a safety issue with the runner, thus effectively negating the purpose of the double base.... The ruling had no effect on the outcome of the game. I am curious as to whether this was the correct call or not.

[wadeintothem]

I understand and enforce it the way you see it.. a(ny) play from foul territory - of which this is. I dont have a book with me right now, but I dont recall d3K mentioned at all in the rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Toon Army
The following occurred during a U-12 Girls Fastpitch game:

B1 hits ball down the line to F3. F3 has ball go off glove into foul territory. F3 recovers in time to grab ball in barehand and place ball in hand on the orange part of 1st base prior to B1 reaching the base. The umpire rules that B1 is safe due to F3 touching orange part of base and not the white part. The 2004 rule book has a section stating that on a play from foul territory that F3 may use the orange part of the base. Umpire rule that this would apply in the case of a dropped third strike and the throw coming from the catcher. If F3 reached across to the white part of the base then she would have created a safety issue with the runner, thus effectively negating the purpose of the double base.... The ruling had no effect on the outcome of the game. I am curious as to whether this was the correct call or not.

Speaking ASA.

On any play coming from the foul side on the 1B side of the field, the defense may use either portion of the double-base. The umpire misinterpreted the rule (8.2.M.3)

[chuck chopper]

I agree with Mike. Wrong call by Ump

[marv]

can a runner stay on the safty bag after the pay

[marv]

after the play

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by marv
can a runner stay on the safty bag after the play?

Marv,

Legally No. If the ball is in the circle and pitcher has
control, then the runner would be out. The orange/yellow
base disappears after the play is over. It is a cheap out
but an out nonetheless.

I got chastised by a UIC in an ASA State tournament for
making just such a call. He told me never to make that call.
Call time and put the runner on the correct base. This was
George Staddard(sp).
He would not even evaluate me after the tournament. No big
deal, have called several since then.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump


I got chastised by a UIC in an ASA State tournament for
making just such a call. He told me never to make that call.
Call time and put the runner on the correct base. This was
George Staddard(sp).
He would not even evaluate me after the tournament. No big
deal, have called several since then.

Ever watched George call a game? What he practices is not what he preaches. I've watched a couple of his games and talked to some guys who have called with him over the years. What you learned at the State clinics is not what you observe on his field.

JMO

[Little Jimmy]

Irish Mafia sites ASA 8-2-M-3 where defense or batter-runner may use either bag on a play from the foul side. Good enough. But doesn't that have the potential to cause a collision as opposed to avoiding one? Saw a similar play as the one Toon Army described. Wide throw to first, F3 gets ball and dives prone to white portion of bag essentially leaving batter-runner nowhere to go. Plate ump rules out because she left runner no piece of the bag to touch. I was a spectator but it seemed like the right call at the time. So am I to assume that F3 can indeed go to white bag from foul territory even though it leaves runner no real space to go?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Little Jimmy
Irish Mafia sites ASA 8-2-M-3 where defense or batter-runner may use either bag on a play from the foul side. Good enough. But doesn't that have the potential to cause a collision as opposed to avoiding one? Saw a similar play as the one Toon Army described. Wide throw to first, F3 gets ball and dives prone to white portion of bag essentially leaving batter-runner nowhere to go. Plate ump rules out because she left runner no piece of the bag to touch. I was a spectator but it seemed like the right call at the time. So am I to assume that F3 can indeed go to white bag from foul territory even though it leaves runner no real space to go?

How do you figure the runner has no place to go. Not a suggestion, but the BR could basically kick F3's head over the right field fence with no penalty if not intentional.

The rules state either bag the purpose of avoiding contact between the two. However, since the BR may not know from where the throw is coming, gives them an option as it does the fielder.

If you want my personal opinion, it hasn't changed. The double-base should be eliminated and coaches required to actually COACH the players how to properly play the position and hit the bag.

[Little Jimmy]

Irish,

Just a question, not a challenge. If F3 drops a routine throw, picks it up 10 feet in foul territory, then dives back to white bag with batter runner stopping 5 feet away to avoid contact, that is essentially a routine out?

As I write this I see the similarities with F4 muffing a grounder, then diving into 2nd base (in front of advancing runner) to get runner on a force.

Has there ever been a thought that a rule REQUIRING F1 to use orange on that type of play would add to the supposed safety of the orange base?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Little Jimmy
Irish,

Just a question, not a challenge. If F3 drops a routine throw, picks it up 10 feet in foul territory, then dives back to white bag with batter runner stopping 5 feet away to avoid contact, that is essentially a routine out?

First off, you must remember that a player in possession of the ball has equal right to any base or basepath as the runner, so it isn't possible to have obstruction of any type.

As I write this I see the similarities with F4 muffing a grounder, then diving into 2nd base (in front of advancing runner) to get runner on a force.

Same as above.

Has there ever been a thought that a rule REQUIRING F1 to use orange on that type of play would add to the supposed safety of the orange base?

Since BR cannot be required to "know" the direction from where the ball is coming, they cannot be held responsible for knowing to go to the white base.

Only so much can be done to avoid collisions and the committees do the best they can without affecting the game. Things cannot be perfect.

To those who want every little detail addressed and prevented (and I've been approached by parents with this attitude), my response is that the game is the game. If anyone has any problem with it, maybe it is they who should change paths. There is only so much which can be done with rules before the game of softball no longer exists as the game we know.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Little Jimmy
Irish,

Just a question, not a challenge. If F3 drops a routine throw, picks it up 10 feet in foul territory, then dives back to white bag with batter runner stopping 5 feet away to avoid contact, that is essentially a routine out?

First off, you must remember that a player in possession of the ball has equal right to any base or basepath as the runner, so it isn't possible to have obstruction of any type.

As I write this I see the similarities with F4 muffing a grounder, then diving into 2nd base (in front of advancing runner) to get runner on a force.

Same as above.

Has there ever been a thought that a rule REQUIRING F1 to use orange on that type of play would add to the supposed safety of the orange base?

Since BR cannot be required to "know" the direction from where the ball is coming, they cannot be held responsible for knowing to go to the white base.

Only so much can be done to avoid collisions and the committees do the best they can without affecting the game. Things cannot be perfect for everyone all of the time.

To those who want every little detail addressed and prevented (and I've been approached by parents with this attitude), my response is that the game is the game. If anyone has any problem with it, maybe it is they who should change paths. There is only so much which can be done with rules before the game of softball no longer exists as the game we know.