BOO?

[SamNVa]

Gentlefolk,

Consider the following scenario. Flora the Flex mistakenly leads off the 4th inning and walks, B1 and B2 follow her at bat and both walk, B3 and B4 then strike out. Now Donna the DP comes to the plate and after a pitch or two is thrown to her, the derensive coach comes out and points out that Flora is on 3rd and Donna is now batting. So what do you do to fix things?

Now an illegal sub is still a substitute, so when Flora illegally batted for B1, B1 left the game and when she came up to bat, she was illegally re-entering in B2's position which makes B1 an illegal sub as well, and so on down to Donna (B5) who is illegally batting for B6. So technically speaking, we have 6 illegal subs and the team only has 13 players, so are we going home early or what?

SamC

[mick]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Gentlefolk,

Consider the following scenario. Flora the Flex mistakenly leads off the 4th inning and walks, B1 and B2 follow her at bat and both walk, B3 and B4 then strike out. Now Donna the DP comes to the plate and after a pitch or two is thrown to her, the derensive coach comes out and points out that Flora is on 3rd and Donna is now batting. So what do you do to fix things?

Now an illegal sub is still a substitute, so when Flora illegally batted for B1, B1 left the game and when she came up to bat, she was illegally re-entering in B2's position which makes B1 an illegal sub as well, and so on down to Donna (B5) who is illegally batting for B6. So technically speaking, we have 6 illegal subs and the team only has 13 players, so are we going home early or what?

SamC

Yeah, Sam,
6 illegal subs or 1 to 6 BOO. That'd be fun.
mick

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by mick

Yeah, Sam,
6 illegal subs or 1 to 6 BOO. That'd be fun.
mick

Ah, but if you simply rule that Flora was BOO, then the 1st pitch to B1 made her legal, and the 1st pitch to B2 made B1 legal, so there is no BOO; so all we are left with is Donna illegally "re-entering" for Flora, i.e. 1 illegal sub insread of 6.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this interp won't fly since 3-1-4.b.2.PENALTY explicitly states: "The penalty for illegal substitution supercedes the batting out of order penalty." So given the choice is any given situation, we must choose to enforce the illegal substiitution penalty.

Still, I eagerly wait other people's replies.

SamC

[Dukat]

The bad thing about this situation is that is is not a situation that is not only possible but likely to happen to all of us at some point. After this thread is over I wouldnt mind having a handy pocket cheat sheet with all the possibilities and results after this happens.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dukat
The bad thing about this situation is that is is not a situation that is not only possible but likely to happen to all of us at some point. After this thread is over I wouldnt mind having a handy pocket cheat sheet with all the possibilities and results after this happens.

Yeah, me too, Dukat.
...A cheat sheet, or a coupla more words in the book.
mick

[Dakota]

The sub for the FLEX can legally bat in the #6 spot.

The sub for the FLEX can not legally bat in the #1 spot.

So, you have a choice - BOO (skipping over 5 positions in the order) plus an unreported substitute, or...

Illegal batter.

While it is unlikely that the batter came to bat thinking she was batting for the DP, nevertheless, unless I thought the offense was trying to pull something, I would go for the least punative option (BOO, unreported sub), mostly because it keeps the player in the game (speaking NFHS).

[mick]

Originally posted by Dakota
The sub for the FLEX can legally bat in the #6 spot.

The sub for the FLEX can not legally bat in the #1 spot.

So, you have a choice - BOO (skipping over 5 positions in the order) plus an unreported substitute, or...

Illegal batter.

While it is unlikely that the batter came to bat thinking she was batting for the DP, nevertheless, unless I thought the offense was trying to pull something, I would go for the least punative option (BOO, unreported sub), mostly because it keeps the player in the game (speaking NFHS).

Thank you, Tom.

[WestMichBlue]

Why are we guessing anything? The facts are (1)The coach ONLY said that he was subbing for the FLEX. Nothing else. (2) The Flex batted between the #9 and # 1 position. (3) She was discovered between innings.

So - Why is everybody ignoring the written rule?

NFHS 2.57.2: An Illegal Substitute is (c) the FLEX who enters the game as a batter in a different position in the batting order than the DP.

3.3.6.6: Placing the FLEX into one of the first nine positions for someone other than the original DP is considered an illegal substitution. The illegal substitute shall be removed from the game and restricted to the bench.

RESULT: all play stands, player is restricted to bench. Need new FLEX. Simple!

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Why are we guessing anything? The facts are (1)The coach ONLY said that he was subbing for the FLEX. Nothing else. (2) The Flex batted between the #9 and # 1 position. (3) She was discovered between innings.

So - Why is everybody ignoring the written rule?

NFHS 2.57.2: An Illegal Substitute is (c) the FLEX who enters the game as a batter in a different position in the batting order than the DP.

3.3.6.6: Placing the FLEX into one of the first nine positions for someone other than the original DP is considered an illegal substitution. The illegal substitute shall be removed from the game and restricted to the bench.

RESULT: all play stands, player is restricted to bench. Need new FLEX. Simple!

WMB

There you go again, WMB, not letting anyone make things up! I'm bummed!

So, you send me back to the rule book and guess what I found...

NFHS 3-4-1b PENALTY

The penalty for illegal substitution takes precedence over the batting-out-of-order penalty.

Game, set, match for WMB. Good job!

[mick]

Originally posted by Dakota

There you go again, WMB, not letting anyone make things up! I'm bummed!

So, you send me back to the rule book and guess what I found...

NFHS 3-4-1b PENALTY

Game, set, match for WMB. Good job!

Oh, my!
Help me understand the difference.
Why is it an illegal substitution for [(announced for FLEX, unannounced for DP)legal, but out-of-order] B6 to bat before B1, but it is batting out-of-order when B3 bats before B1.

Why, then, are not all BOO's considered illegal substitutions?

Thanks,
mick

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mick

Why, then, are not all BOO's considered illegal substitutions?

Because not all those people are illegal substitutes. For that matter, they could have been a starter, never left the game and still BOO in the 7th inning.

[SamNVa]

Guys,

I'm not arguing that because the FLEX batted between the 9th and 1st batters, she therefore illegally subbed for B1. I even mentioned the rule about illegal subs taking precedence over BOO. My question is, how do you handle the scenario that I presented where you techinically have 6 illegal subs, not just 1? Do you disqualify them all and if the team does not have enough players do you then declare a forfeit?

SamC

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Guys,

I'm not arguing that because the FLEX batted between the 9th and 1st batters, she therefore illegally subbed for B1. I even mentioned the rule about illegal subs taking precedence over BOO. My question is, how do you handle the scenario that I presented where you techinically have 6 illegal subs, not just 1? Do you disqualify them all and if the team does not have enough players do you then declare a forfeit?

SamC

They cannot be illegal subs if they are already in the game.

[mick]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Guys,

I'm not arguing that because the FLEX batted between the 9th and 1st batters, she therefore illegally subbed for B1. I even mentioned the rule about illegal subs taking precedence over BOO. My question is, how do you handle the scenario that I presented where you techinically have 6 illegal subs, not just 1? Do you disqualify them all and if the team does not have enough players do you then declare a forfeit?

SamC

Sam,
I may follow the "seems fair" category unless using the poorly written rule is advantageous to me.
Other than that, I'll wait'll next year when Fed fixes it.
I've never seen the sitch yet, so maybe it's a non-problem.
mick

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

They cannot be illegal subs if they are already in the game.

But that is the point that I'm trying to make here; an illegal sub is still a sub which mens that B1 is no longer in the game when the FLEX comes up to bat in her position. Therefore when B1 comes up to bat after the FLEX, she is illegalllu returning to the lineup in B2's position thereby mking B1 an illegal sub too and so on right down the line as each batter comes up in turn. So in my scenario, with the FLEX, B1, and B2 on base, B3 and B4 in rhe dugout on strike outs, and B5 at the plate, it's pretty obvious that you now have 6 illegal players in the game, and by rule they all should be disqualified.

I guess the real point that I am trying to make here is that all of you folks doing HS ball in states new to the DP/FLEX rule have to be diligent in yout lineup management so as to not allow this to happen.

SamC

[Edited by SamNVa on Apr 21st, 2004 at 05:32 PM]