Crazy play

[FUBLUE]

I was lucky enough to call a local county tournament this weekend. Did three games, first two on the plate, last one on the bases. Here's a situation we had happen.

Runner on THIRD one out.

Batter grounds to third base, she looks runner back, throws to first. Throw is wild, causing F3 to pull foot. I call, "pulled foot, SAFE!" F3 sees runner breaking for home, throws ball home to get the runner out at the plate.

(Next two happen simultaneously)

Defense starts off the field, coach realizes what I said and has fielders pick up ball and touch first base.

Batter-Runner thinks she's out, heads back to dugout by jogging down first-baseline. Coach says, "you call her safe." I said I did. He then yells "go back to first."

(Here's the fun part)

Runner heads back to first where, luckily, a wise fielder grabs the ball and tags the runner before she reaches first base. I call out.



MY QUESTION: Both coaches bring up good points.

DC: she's running bases in reverse/she gave herself up

OC: She never turned towards second, doesn't she get first automatically?

(by the way, my partner is shaking his head yes to both coaches at the same time)

Luckily, when I called the third out that inning it was already 8-0. So neither coach was upset by it.

Just wondering how you guys explain that one to a coach, or if you give the runner "benefit of the doubt" in returning to first, or if you envoke "umpire put her in jeopardy" rule, or if you just pull something out of your netherregions and hope coach buys it.

(Coach isn't really intense towards umpires; he actually likes umpires)

[wadeintothem]

For what its worth as a non expert.. I'll state

DC: she's running bases in reverse/she gave herself up
She left the base .. shes out.


OC: She never turned towards second, doesn't she get first automatically

She does not automatically get 1st. She could do any number of things to get put out.. including leave the 3 foot line, enter the dugout.. etc. It doesnt mean she can wander aimlessly about the ball park without fear of being put out. Another good thing she can do to get put out is exit 1st base and head towards home and get tagged.

I actually don't think the OC brought up a good point at all and would have ruled with you on this.


Just wondering how you guys explain that one to a coach, or if you give the runner "benefit of the doubt" in returning to first, or if you envoke "umpire put her in jeopardy" rule, or if you just pull something out of your netherregions and hope coach buys it.

I do not give them the benefit of the doubt. I stand firm on that call.. had she stood on the base and been confused and asked for a clarification as to whether she was out or safe, I would have gladly responded. If she decided to head towards the dugout, and got tagged, she's out.

Regarding the DC Coach.. I dont think the first part of his statement, running bases in reverse order, applies in this instance unless she actually touches a base in reverse order... The case as described by you is simply getting put out while off of first while the ball is in play.

We'll see what the experts think.. I wanted to state my thoughts to see how I do.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
I was lucky enough to call a local county tournament this weekend. Did three games, first two on the plate, last one on the bases. Here's a situation we had happen.

Runner on THIRD one out.

Batter grounds to third base, she looks runner back, throws to first. Throw is wild, causing F3 to pull foot. I call, "pulled foot, SAFE!" F3 sees runner breaking for home, throws ball home to get the runner out at the plate.

(Next two happen simultaneously)

Defense starts off the field, coach realizes what I said and has fielders pick up ball and touch first base.

Batter-Runner thinks she's out, heads back to dugout by jogging down first-baseline. Coach says, "you call her safe." I said I did. He then yells "go back to first."

(Here's the fun part)

Runner heads back to first where, luckily, a wise fielder grabs the ball and tags the runner before she reaches first base. I call out.



MY QUESTION: Both coaches bring up good points.

DC: she's running bases in reverse/she gave herself up

OC: She never turned towards second, doesn't she get first automatically?

(by the way, my partner is shaking his head yes to both coaches at the same time)

Luckily, when I called the third out that inning it was already 8-0. So neither coach was upset by it.

Just wondering how you guys explain that one to a coach, or if you give the runner "benefit of the doubt" in returning to first, or if you envoke "umpire put her in jeopardy" rule, or if you just pull something out of your netherregions and hope coach buys it.

(Coach isn't really intense towards umpires; he actually likes umpires)

Speaking ASA

How can the umpire put anyone in jeopardy if they made a correct call in a timely fashion?

Returning to 1B after overrunning it is permissible and may return without jeopardy as long as there is no attempt to advance to 2B (POE 36). Running the bases in reverse order is only an out if done so to confuse the fielders or make a travesty of the game.

There is no such rule instructing the umpire to rule a runner out for abandonment until the player has voluntarily left the field of play. Since you didn't mention it, I assume the runner never entered DBT.

Now, if the umpire never kills the ball, it is going to be dicey. Rule 8.8.I notes that the BR isn't not out when overrunning 1B after touching it as long as they return directly to the base. The BR could be called out if she had passed 1B or not been heading directly to it at the time the tag was applied.

A bit of preventive umpiring would have alleviated this entire situation. Knowing that it was not the 3rd out and seeing that the runner was not making any attempt to advance farther than 1B, it may have been wise to kill the ball. After all, that plate must have been awfully dirty after the play at home



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 12th, 2004 at 07:29 AM]

[chuck chopper]

We have all had these crazy plays before. She is not out for running bases backwards. She is not out for being out of the 3 foot "baseline" because no play was being made on her as she returned to the bench. Then when the play was finally being made on her, she went right to the bag.
To me everything that happened was legal. Crazy & legal.

[Dakota]

Unless I really, really wanted to end the game (JK!), I would not have called the BR out.

Speaking ASA, Mike cited the rule where the BR places herself in jeopardy if she attempts 2nd. Obviously, this runner did not attempt 2nd.

Assuming she did not enter the dugout, she is still protected (IMO). My reasoning is:

1) While it is true that 8-8-I prescribes a situation of returning "directly" as when the BR is not out,

2) 8-7-H gives the only condition for the out call - attempt of 2nd base.

There is no place in the rule book where it states that the BR is out for returing indirectly to 1st after a legal overrun. You can't even apply the "more than 3' out of the basepath when a play is being attempted" since the basepath is defined as the line from the runner to the base.

Summary: BR was not out. OC only half right (sort of) - turning toward 2nd isn't the issue - making an attempt at 2nd is. DC is grasping at straws (and wrong).

Mike's right - it is dicey, and killing the ball would have helped, but BR safe is still correct (IMJ).

[TexBlue]

I've got a coupla questions.

1) Did the BR ever reach 1st base?

2) Which side of 1st was she walking down the line to the dugout on? The outfield or home?

[kono]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
A bit of preventive umpiring would have alleviated this entire situation. Knowing that it was not the 3rd out and seeing that the runner was not making any attempt to advance farther than 1B, it may have been wise to kill the ball. After all, that plate must have been awfully dirty after the play at home

Rec ball, Regular season LL - I would tend to agree - kill the play - no outs for general confusion. Tournament play - maybe a little different?? Age group should probably be considered as well.

Add me to the "she didn't return directly to the base" column.

-Kono

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by TexBlue
I've got a coupla questions.

1) Did the BR ever reach 1st base?

2) Which side of 1st was she walking down the line to the dugout on? The outfield or home?

1. She legally touched first base, came back, coach told here she was out, and was walking off the field towards third base dugout. She was at home plate when she went back to first.

IMO, she has already returned to first after the overrun. She was legally off the base with liability to be put out. NO she never even looked at second, but here's a question: If B-R reaches first base, returns to first base, then steps off the base without a dead ball being called, is subsequently tagged, then would we call her out?

2. Obviously, as explained above, she was between first and home.

[CecilOne]

She was safe, unless and until she illegally left a base she had reached or legally left a base (e.g., trying to advance while the ball was live and not in the circle) and then was put out.
If she did what you said, ending up between 1st and home (or off the field) during a live ball, she is out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE


1. She legally touched first base, came back, coach told here she was out, and was walking off the field towards third base dugout. She was at home plate when she went back to first.

If that's the case, and the umpire did not kill the ball, the runner is out.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
IMO, she has already returned to first after the overrun. She was legally off the base with liability to be put out. NO she never even looked at second, but here's a question: If B-R reaches first base, returns to first base, then steps off the base without a dead ball being called, is subsequently tagged, then would we call her out?

Since you said IMO... I'm still not sure if she actually touched 1st again after the overrun.

If she did, then that is a horse of a different color - she has returned to 1st, and as you say, just stepped of the base and is subject to being tagged.

OTOH, if the coach told her she was out, and she headed back to the dugout without actually returning to 1st, then IMJ, she is still protected (made no attempt at 2nd).

I'm not trying to split hairs (i.e. she stepped over the base - that kind of thing) - if she "returned to 1st," then she was off base and in jeopardy. That call makes sense, but it doesn't seem to me the rules clearly support placing her in jeopardy because her path back to first was not direct.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


I'm not trying to split hairs (i.e. she stepped over the base - that kind of thing) - if she "returned to 1st," then she was off base and in jeopardy. That call makes sense, but it doesn't seem to me the rules clearly support placing her in jeopardy because her path back to first was not direct.

Speaking ASA

Tom,

If the runner in question was between 1B & home, her return to 1B is a fact of life. Whether she touched it is irrelevant. Why, you ask? Because she obviously passed it and we all know what that means in ASA ball, don't we?

[kono]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
If the runner in question was between 1B & home, her return to 1B is a fact of life. Whether she touched it is irrelevant. Why, you ask? Because she obviously passed it and we all know what that means in ASA ball, don't we?

Ahhh - but it is relevant. If she didn't touch the base she can be put out on appeal - correct???

-Kono

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by kono

Ahhh - but it is relevant. If she didn't touch the base she can be put out on appeal - correct???

-Kono

Appeal of what? The reference is to the BR overrunning and returning to the bag. The statement is an attempt to deter questions about whether the BR actually returned and "touched" the base.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

Tom,

If the runner in question was between 1B & home, her return to 1B is a fact of life. Whether she touched it is irrelevant. Why, you ask? Because she obviously passed it and we all know what that means in ASA ball, don't we?

Good point - I guess I was visualizing a "path" not so clearly seen as passing the base.

As I said, I can support the "off base after having returned" call. And "passed the base = achieved the base" works for me.

While I can see the D-coach getting agitated over not calling the BR out, I can't support the "in jeopardy due to an indirect return" call.