What do you do?

MisterV · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 02:47pm

Last night our HS coaching staff took our varsity and JV players to our local D-1 nonconference game. We had a situation come up that really got us talking.

Bottom of the 6th, wind blowing out towards left,home team down by one, no outs, runner on 3rd(I think). Batter hits a deep line drive that is hooking towards the line. The ball clears the fence and, from our vantage point, looks clearly fair. It was close, but it looked fair. The third base umpire raised his hands and pointed foul.

Needless to say, the 3rd base coach went crazy, waving arms and pointing in every direction. Crowd gets hostile and things get a little ugly in the stands.

That is when my coaching partner looks at me and says,"I don't know why the home plate umpire doesn't just go and overrule the base ump." Now, I have done a good number HS jv games in my day, and even a varsity game now and then, but I couldn't think of a time when I would go out an "overrule" a base umpire's call. I would give a different call than the one that was made if I was asked for help on a play, but overrule? Never.

I have seen MLB games where a crew chief will confer with his crew about a close fair/foul call and ultimitely change the call. Is that considered overruling? Further, is there EVER a time when one umpire may overrule another? If so, is that covered in any book?

I started to discuss with her the damage that overruling would to to the crew's credibility. And that every call the 3B ump makes from then on would be questioned by everybody. Her reply was that it is the umps' job to get it right, regardless of who has to step in and get it right.

I welcome your respones.

mick · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 03:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MisterV
...Batter hits a deep line drive that is hooking towards the line. The ball clears the fence and, from our vantage point, looks clearly fair. It was close, but it looked fair. The third base umpire raised his hands and pointed foul.

MisterV,
Do you recall the positions of the umpires with R1 on 3rd before the play and at the call?
Was that a three-man crew? 4-man crew?
Did 3rd base umpire run out to get a look?
Thanks.
mick

MisterV · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 03:17pm

Yes, I should have given this info...
3 man crew. 3B ump made it about one-third of the way out to the pole. This wasn't a high fly ball where he really had time to get out there. It was more of a hooking line drive that was really tagged. I think he got out as far as he could be expected to make it.

Also, there was no delay in his signal. He really tried to sell it. (as much as one can sell a close call to a bunch of angry fans)

CecilOne · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 03:30pm

If U3 went out on the fly and there was no pregame agreement to the contrary, then it would seem to be U3's call, right or wrong.

wrt: "is there EVER a time when one umpire may overrule another": In the literal sense of overrule, no. The calling umpire may ask for help from another umpire, but it is still the responsible umpire's call if it is changed. E.g., if I check with my partner for input or another angle and my partner says I blew it, I still make the changed call. The rule books usually give more authority to the umpire-in-chief on certain matters, but not changing judgement calls.

The attitude that "it is the umps' job to get it right, regardless of who has to step in and get it right" is fine and should be our attitude; but that does not include an overrule on a judgement call.

mick · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 03:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MisterV
Yes, I should have given this info...
3 man crew. 3B ump made it about one-third of the way out to the pole. This wasn't a high fly ball where he really had time to get out there. It was more of a hooking line drive that was really tagged. I think he got out as far as he could be expected to make it.

Also, there was no delay in his signal. He really tried to sell it. (as much as one can sell a close call to a bunch of angry fans)

MisterV,
Regardless of whether U3 knew the rule of the ball going over the fence in flight, or not, he sure had a great look at it.
I wonder how short that fence was to cause such confusion.
mick

MisterV · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 03:57pm

The outfield fence is about 10 ft tall with a yellow line at the top edge. The foul pole was white and extends up another 10 feet or so above the edge of the fence.

There was no question that the ball left the yard. The only question was fair or foul. As I said, it looked clearly fair from my vantage point. It was one of those things where it looked so clear from where I was, that I was stunned when he called it foul.

Still, I'm not arguing his call. I'm merely raising the question of possible overruling.

Actually, one of our other coaches who was in a different part of the stadium at the time, said he thought it was foul. Isn't it amazing how much a slight change in angle or sightline can affect your perspective?

mick · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 04:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MisterV
The outfield fence is about 10 ft tall with a yellow line at the top edge. The foul pole was white and extends up another 10 feet or so above the edge of the fence.

Two guys were looking to measure the height of a tree.
One suggested cutting it down and measuring it on the ground.
The other said they wanted the height, not the length.

I was wonderin' how short, not how tall.
Cuz the ball went "gone" in a hurry!

mick

SamNVa · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 05:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MisterV
Actually, one of our other coaches who was in a different part of the stadium at the time, said he thought it was foul. Isn't it amazing how much a slight change in angle or sightline can affect your perspective?

I think you have just justified the umpire's call. Since HE was the only one on the 3rd baseline isn't it just a little possible that he had the best angle to just the ball fair or foul.

SamC

TexBlue · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 05:54pm

I agree with Sam. On a 3 man crew, if the B3 went out and was on the line, he definitely has the best call on the ball. Also, since you said one of your coaches from another part of the field thought it was foul, there's not much ground on which to question the blue.

As far as overruling my call? Not gonna happen. I will always talk to my partners and get whatever input I believe I need. But it's still my call. I haven't had anyone try to do that in a long time. If my partner tries to make me ( read that as "us" ) look bad by running out and overrulling me, one of us will be leaving the field, just as soon as we get it straight whose call it was. Or else we'll come to an immediate agreement as to whether that will ever happen again. And I promise you, we'll never call together again.

I've never had a problem changing a call, if my partner saw something I didn't that affects the play. I've even gone out and begged my partner to tell me something about what they saw. I've had a few tell me it's my call, they "won't overrule me." That's never what I'm asking for. I am darned near ( 99.9%) satisfied with my call, with what I saw. (That .01%? I still have mental breakdowns on the field sometimes. But I've never been so full of myself that I wouldn't admit the possibility that I might not have been able to see everything on the play. That's what partners are for. To assist each other, but absolutely never to overrule.

DownTownTonyBrown · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 07:53pm

Made a similar call a couple of years ago during a college baseball game as the plate umpire.

There were runners on so my partner was inside the diamond. The hit, with the home team behind in the bottom of the 9th, was a big curving fly ball down the 1st base line. I hustled almost as far as 1st base and made the four base signal that ended the game with the home team winning. The ball hit the ground 30 feet foul.

The visiting coach went nuts - they always do. He wanted to know how I could make that call. My response was quite simple and he shut up immediately... "Because I saw the ball go behind the foul pole." The foul pole in my situation was probably 40-50 feet tall. Your situation sounds much more difficult and perhaps the ball was above the height of the foul pole making it extremely difficult to decide whether the ball went out in front of the pole (which the 3rd base ump must have felt happened) or whether it went out behind the foul pole.

Tough call, but one coach or the other coach was sure to go nuts...

They always do.

#11 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 08:55pm

Worse is having to make a call down the line in a slowpitch game when the outfield foul lines haven't been marked and you have to use judgement relative to the pole and the infield foul lines. I've called some close ones that guys will stand there and look at it after I've called it and say how the hell was that foul??? I said "see the mowing line?, that's the foul line." Answer from howling monkeys: nothing.

mick · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 17, 2004, 09:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
Worse is having to make a call down the line in a slowpitch game when the outfield foul lines haven't been marked and you have to use judgement relative to the pole and the infield foul lines.

Uh, how 'bout ...runner on second, a baseball, same field, same fence at 324'.

wadeintothem · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 22, 2004, 03:56pm

I wouldnt even consider overruling that call at game time.... that said..

I think this is the plate umps job that should have been worked out pregame... in other words.. he made a call that he should not have made... maybe i'm wrong about this.. and on that I would talk with him later about that.

Unless you deferred to him.. in which case .. his call is his call.. but if he jumped on a call that should be mine I would be none to pleased..

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 25, 2004, 04:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
Worse is having to make a call down the line in a slowpitch game when the outfield foul lines haven't been marked and you have to use judgement relative to the pole and the infield foul lines. I've called some close ones that guys will stand there and look at it after I've called it and say how the hell was that foul??? I said "see the mowing line?, that's the foul line." Answer from howling monkeys: nothing. [/B]

How about when it's hit so high it disappears above the lights when it clears the fence, goes into the trees and is never seen again?