How many runs score?

Bluefoot · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 08:48am

Bases loaded, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, no outs. B4 hits a long base hit. All three runners score and B4 is thrown out when tyring to reach 3B. Then the defense properly appeals that both R2 and R3 did not touch 3B to end the inning. Does R1's run count?

greymule · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 09:15am

Yes. The third outÂ—in fact, every outÂ—was a time play.

TexBlue · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 09:19am

I agree with Greymule, all three are timing plays, the run counts.

Dakota · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 09:25am

How easily are you guys provoked today???

Quote:

Originally posted by Bluefoot
Bases loaded, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, no outs. B4 hits a long base hit. All three runners score and B4 is thrown out when tyring to reach 3B. Then the defense properly appeals that both R2 and R3 did not touch 3B to end the inning. Does R1's run count?

The first out was a non-force out (B4/R4 at 3rd). However, the appeal of R2 missing 3rd is a force out (appeal of a missed base to which the runner was forced to advance).

So, could a clever defense have appealed R3's missed base first (time out) for the second out, and THEN appealed R2's missed base for the third out? Yes - no runs score.

However, if appealed in order of R2 then R3, R1's run scores.

Bluefoot · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 11:28am

Does that mean that as long as the last, or third out is a force out (in this case, on appeal) that ANY runs would not count? Even though the first and/or second outs were not force outs, and made AFTER legal runners scored?

ChampaignBlue · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 11:54am

R1 scores no matter the order of the two appeals.

Once the batter runner is out the force is off and the other two outs are timed appeals.

Let's say that R2 and R3 were trying to return to the missed bases when BR is tagged out and the fielder throws wild. Can R3 return to 1st? Yes, since the BR is out. The force is off. R1 scores

TexBlue · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 12:12pm

previously posted by Dakota

How easily are you guys provoked today???

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bluefoot
Bases loaded, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, no outs. B4 hits a long base hit. All three runners score and B4 is thrown out when tyring to reach 3B. Then the defense properly appeals that both R2 and R3 did not touch 3B to end the inning. Does R1's run count?
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The first out was a non-force out (B4/R4 at 3rd). However, the appeal of R2 missing 3rd is a force out (appeal of a missed base to which the runner was forced to advance).

So, could a clever defense have appealed R3's missed base first (time out) for the second out, and THEN appealed R2's missed base for the third out? Yes - no runs score.
__________________________________________________ _________

I humbly (sort of) disagree. The force out definitely happened before the appeal. Thus the timing on the play only pertains to the last out, which was the appeal. Sooooo, the run does count, as it happened before the appeal was made.

CecilOne · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 01:05pm

I think we determined earlier that if a force is still in effect (no succeeding runner put out); the appeal on a forced runner is still a force out.

greymule · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 08, 2004, 07:01pm

In ASA, once the BR is put out, all force plays are off, period. In this play, the BR was the first of multiple outs. No other outs can be force plays. It doesn't matter who missed what base when. See case play 5.5.2.

Technically, it is possible for the BR to make an out and the offense to stumble into a force play. But this would have to happen by some runner retreating and reinstating a force somewhere.

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 09, 2004, 10:15am

Well, I guess you guys aren't too easy to provoke.

DaveASA/FED · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 09, 2004, 03:01pm

Maybe I lost it but you said that a force could not be made if the BR gets thrown out. I agree in this case as the outs did not occur in the correct order that R1's run would score. But what if there is one out bases loaded and a long shot to the outfield and BR get thrown out at the plate for the second out of the inning. Then the smart catcher appeals that R1(from 3rd) did not touch home plate when she ran in. You agree and ring her up for the 3rd out of the inning. If I remember correctly that would be the third out and since R1 was forced to advance and this was the 3rd out then all runs would be cancelled. I base this on the forth out appeal rule that if I remember correctly is the same situation I described above except there were two outs and the BR was the 3rd, and you appeal for the 4th out so you can eliminate the runs scored. What am I missing?

SamNVa · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 09, 2004, 03:09pm

Dave,

The situation you are describing where the 3rd out is an appeal on the runner from 3rd at home negates all of the following runs because no succeding runner may score when a preceding runner is called out for the 3rd out on an appeal. Ir has nothing to do with R1 being forced to home..

SamC

DaveASA/FED · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 09, 2004, 03:47pm

But it would be the same thing if let's say that R2 missed 3rd (they were forced to advance and touch that base) and R3 misses 2nd (again forced to advance) in the above mentioned scenerio. Correct? That was what I was getting at I guess I might not have worded it correctly. Like I said I agree that in that case R1's run would score but what I was getting at was I guess just a play on words, the force may be off after the BR is out but you can still get an out that will nullify runs for a runner that missed a base that they were forced to advance to. Is that correct?

ChampaignBlue · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:25pm

Dave, the dif is that trailing runners can't score after the 3rd out. In the situ above a preceeding runner scored.

Let's say you have R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd and R1 on 1st. If R1 is appealed for the 3rd out then R3 and R2 cannot score. If R2 is appealed for the 3rd out then R1 can score but R3 cannot. If R3 is appealed for the 3rd out then R1 and R2 can score but BR cannot. If BR is appealed for the 3rd out everyone else can score provided the appeal isn't at 1st.

DaveASA/FED · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 09:29am

I agree 100% I guess what got me thinking was all the talk about the froce being removed after the BR is out. Maybe it's a matter of mixing words. What you described is how I looked at it, even if the BR is put out, it does not remove the chance to get a runner out on appeal for missing a base they were forced to advance to, and if they are called out for the 3rd or 4th out of the inning (depending on when they were called out) it can remove runs that were scored. Thanks!