Batting out of order

rwest · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 11, 2004, 03:16pm

Rule 7-2-C-2-D of th '04 ASA Rule Book says...

If the batter declared out under these circumstances is the third out, the correct batter in the next inning shall be the player who would have come to bat had the player been put out by ordinary play.

Rule 7-2-C-2-C Exception says....

If the incorrect batter was out as a result at their time at bat, and is scheduled to be the next proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

Ok, thats what the rule book says. Now the situation...

The top of the line-up is due up in the top of the 3rd inning. Batter 1 is thrown out at first. Batter 2 fails to bat. Batter 3 bats in his/her place, batting out of order, but is thrown out at first. So now we have two outs.

Batter 4 comes to the plate, but before the next legal/illegal pitch, the defense appeals, getting the 3rd out.

Now, who bats the next inning? I think its batter 4 because of the exception above. Am I right?

Thanks!

Dakota · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 11, 2004, 04:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
Yes, anyone who makes an out can't lead off the next inning.

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
Yes, no one who makes an out can lead off the next inning.

Which is it, Cecil - anyone can't or no one can?

I know ... one of those sentences are both the same!

Anyway, to the scenario...

B1 put out through ordinary play.
B3 put out through ordinary play.
B2 declared out on the BOO appeal.
B3 is due up as the legal batter to follow B2, but due to the exception in "c", B4 bats first in the next inning.

CecilOne · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2004, 10:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Which is it, Cecil - anyone can't or no one can?

I know ... one of those sentences are both the same!

Anyway, to the scenario...

B1 put out through ordinary play.
B3 put out through ordinary play.
B2 declared out on the BOO appeal.
B3 is due up as the legal batter to follow B2, but due to the exception in "c", B4 bats first in the next inning. [/B]

One of those network errors where it looks like nothing was posted. I like the first one better, bu the second is probably simpler. I deleted both to save space.

Dakota · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2004, 10:36am

I hope you weren't offended by my little fun-poking, Cecil.

The use of language is one of my interests... Odd for an engineer, but there it is anyway...

CecilOne · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2004, 11:30am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
I hope you weren't offended by my little fun-poking, Cecil.

The use of language is one of my interests... Odd for an engineer, but there it is anyway...

Of course not, even if I hadn't deserved it; and I share that interest even if you can't tell by my hasty posts.

Dakota · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2004, 01:11pm

Actually, both of your sentences were correct and said the same thing... didn't have no double negatives er nuthin'!

bluezebra · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 13, 2004, 12:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Actually, both of your sentences were correct and said the same thing... didn't have no double negatives er nuthin'!

Actually, BOTH sentences were INCORRECT. Any batter CAN lead off the next inning. "Can" means ability. "MAY" means permission.

Bob

mach3 · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 03:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota

Anyway, to the scenario...

B1 put out through ordinary play.
B3 put out through ordinary play.
B2 declared out on the BOO appeal.
B3 is due up as the legal batter to follow B2, but due to the exception in "c", B4 bats first in the next inning. [/B]

OK, back to the problem:
So if instead of B3 B4 would be the impropper batter (batting instead of B2) than in the next Inning B3 would be up first, followed by B4? Right?

Raoul

greymule · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 09:52am

mach3: Right.

Actually, BOTH sentences were INCORRECT. Any batter CAN lead off the next inning. "Can" means ability. "MAY" means permission.

I guess we've all been through the "teacher, can I get a drink?" lesson, where the teacher says yes and the kid gets up to leave for the drinking fountain and is then chastised for not obtaining permission. As for batters, though, what's at issue is not permission but ability to bat under the rules.

Can does often denote absolute ability (he can juggle four balls at once), but it also applies with understood conditions: "You can't put pennies in that parking meter" doesn't mean it is impossible to insert pennies; the condition "and get time on the meter" is understood. "You can't put gasoline in a diesel engine" is clearly false in absolute terms (I know: my brother did it years ago when he was working in a filling station), but permission is not the issue. Understood is "and then have the engine operate properly."

Anyone who makes an out can't lead off the next inning legally.

As for whether that sentence is technically grammatically correct, believe it or not, at least two local university professors are consulting their reference books. The question is, While anyone alone clearly cannot be used in a negative construction (anyone cannot join the club), does the rule apply to a "qualified" anyone (anyone from out of state cannot join the club)?

My position is that the sentence is in fact technically incorrect, but acceptable in everyday use. Like "Jim's mother gave him a kiss" and "the runner's mistake caused her to be called out" (which are both grammatically incorrect), it does violate a rule, but harmlessly.

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 10:39am

Bob is a retired old coot who is a hopeless curmudgeon,

but I hope for the rest of our sanity, we can get back out on the field soon.

And, a pox on all you Texans and other sunbelters.

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 10:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by mach3

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota

Anyway, to the scenario...

B1 put out through ordinary play.
B3 put out through ordinary play.
B2 declared out on the BOO appeal.
B3 is due up as the legal batter to follow B2, but due to the exception in "c", B4 bats first in the next inning.

OK, back to the problem:
So if instead of B3 B4 would be the impropper batter (batting instead of B2) than in the next Inning B3 would be up first, followed by B4? Right?

Raoul [/B]

Right.

TexBlue · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 01:13pm

OK, I'm confused and I don't know why. It could be Grey Mules grammatical discussion or I just am misunderstanding the situation.

Originally posted by Dakota

Anyway, to the scenario...

B1 put out through ordinary play.
B3 put out through ordinary play.
B2 declared out on the BOO appeal.
B3 is due up as the legal batter to follow B2, but due to the exception in "c", B4 bats first in the next inning.

Now, I'm with you so far and agree wholeheartedly. Why would B3 ever come back to bat again in this situation? I know it's all in English, not even King's English,

but good ole American English, am I missing something? Mach3's post is asking about B3 batting again and is told that is correct. Can you help a poor ole country boy out here? I may need pictures, I don't know. Guess I'll just keep on plodding on til it clears up.

[Edited by TexBlue on Feb 18th, 2004 at 01:38 PM]

bluezebra · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Bob is a retired old coot who is a hopeless curmudgeon,
but I hope for the rest of our sanity, we can get back out on the field soon.

And, a pox on all you Texans and other sunbelters.

That's one of the nicest things anyone has said about me.

Thanks,

Bob

Dakota · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
That's one of the nicest things anyone has said about me.

Thanks,

Bob

Glad you enjoyed it... it was meant as friend to friend (even though we've never met).

Dakota · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 18, 2004, 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue
OK, I'm confused and I don't know why. It could be Grey Mules grammatical discussion or I just am misunderstanding the situation.

Originally posted by Dakota

Anyway, to the scenario...

B1 put out through ordinary play.
B3 put out through ordinary play.
B2 declared out on the BOO appeal.
B3 is due up as the legal batter to follow B2, but due to the exception in "c", B4 bats first in the next inning.

Now, I'm with you so far and agree wholeheartedly. Why would B3 ever come back to bat again in this situation? I know it's all in English, not even King's English, but good ole American English, am I missing something? Mach3's post is asking about B3 batting again and is told that is correct. Can you help a poor ole country boy out here? I may need pictures, I don't know.

If B3 had not been put out, B3 would be due up since B3 follows B2. Here is the section of the rule that pertains...

ASA 7-2C EFFECT-2c (whew!)

Quote:

The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat.

Since B2 was the player called out for failing to bat, B3 would be due up. However, paragraph c continues...

Quote:

EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter was out as a result of their time at bat, and is scheduled to be the next proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

B3 was the incorrect batter, and was put out on the play, and would be the next batter due up, so she is skipped and B4 comes to bat.