Batter hits pitch that hit ground

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
I think many on this board would agree that it is a little too late for that claim, Claven!

Probably so. I just wish the rulebook meant what it said, said what it meant, and did not mislead the reader with ambiguities. There's something wrong when a group of experienced umpires, all with a rulebook in their hands, can't agree on how a play should be called.

"Claven"? I give up!

And I still want to know: batter swings and misses, but ball hits plate just before bat reaches ball. Do we call that a ball?

[Edited by greymule on Feb 8th, 2004 at 11:00 PM]

If that swing, in my judgment, was an honest attempt to put the ball into play, I'm calling the strike.

[mcrowder]

Mike - what if it was not only an honest attempt to hit the ball, but a successful one too? Are you saying that if the ball hit the ground just before an unsuccessful honest attempt to hit the ball, you call a strike, but if the ball hit the ground just before a successful attempt to hit the ball, it's a ball?

I don't have an answer here - but it seems that at the very least these two situations need to be called consistently with each other.

[bluezebra]

greymule:

What don't you understand by "swing"? If the batter offers at a pitch, it's a SWING.

If the batter swings before the ball hits the ground, it's a legal swing, and a strike if missed. If the ball his the ground before the swing, it's a ball and dead in most books. In SCMAF (Southern California Municipal Athletic Association), the batter is out if he/she swings after the pitch hits the ground.

Cliff Claven was the know-it-all on "Cheers".

Bob

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA.

There is far too much conversation over something so simple. Following this thread is harder than reading the player's minds.

Declaring a batter out for hitting a ball that has touched the ground is a 16" ball interference rule. Maybe SCMAF adopted it for all SP, I don't know.

People are talking as if a "swing" is an event that takes long enough to clock with an egg timer. I don't think I've ever seen a swing take much more than 3/4 a second even from the weakest hitter.

If a batter swings at a pitch that just happens to hit the ground, it is a dead ball and strike regardless of the result.

If it is obvious that the batter is attempting to hit the ball on the bounce, or was not actually making an effort to strike the pitch, it should be called a ball unless is passed through the strike zone.

[mcrowder]

The swing may be quick, but the ball may not be. I think that's the clarification...

Pitch ... bounce.... swing is one scenario.

Pitch ... start swing ... bounce just before the hitting or missing of the ball - this is the scenario in question. Sounds like you (MikeR) are calling strike whether the ball was hit or not here. Don't the rules say it's not? Can you really call it a strike if they hit it, but then not allow the hit to stand?

[gsf23]

If it is that close, then if they miss it, they swung before it hit the ground and a strike. If they hit it, they swung before it hit the ground and I am calling a dead ball, ball on the batter and runners go back.

[greymule]

Pitch ... bounce.... swing is one scenario.

Pitch ... start swing ... bounce just before the hitting or missing of the ball - this is the scenario in question.

Thank you, mcrowder. The way the book is worded, it seems clearly to prohibit "pitch . . . bounce . . . swing." In slow pitch, this rule makes a great deal of sense, since some batters could undoubtedly hit such pitches out of the park, and swinging after the bounce would be dangerous.

If the ball bounces on or before the plate, and then the batter swings and hits it, we'll call that a ball and everybody will accept our ruling. You can't swing after the ball hits the ground.

What I'm looking for is a consistent and logical way to call pitch/swing/ground/miss and pitch/swing/ground/hit. And it seems to me that they have to be called the same way. Since both cases represent legitimate but failed attempts to hit the ball properly, maybe the call should be strike.

So Claven is a know-it-all. I am truly sorry if I ever come across that way. It is precisely because I do not know it all that I post on this board. I do seek convincing answers, though.

[Edited by greymule on Feb 9th, 2004 at 08:53 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
[BSo Claven is a know-it-all. I am truly sorry if I ever come across that way. It is precisely because I do not know it all that I post on this board. I do seek convincing answers, though.
[/B]

That was not the manner in which I used the name. It was meant as a humorous response to your use of the word pedant. I believe the was a little smilie face there.

[Woodchuck]

Skahtboi - Go back and read rule 7-4 again, it states "A BALL IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE on each Pitch not swung at by Batter if:" The batter in USSSA can swing at any pitch that hits the ground before passing the plate and he/she live with the results.

[mcrowder]

gsf - you said ..."If they hit it, they swung before it hit the ground and I am calling a dead ball, ball on the batter and runners go back."

WHAT?

If they swung before it hit the ground, why are you calling it dead?

To my thinking (and to grey's point), this should be called the exact same way whether the ball is hit or not... the question is: which way.

[bluezebra]

"Declaring a batter out for hitting a ball that has touched the ground is a 16" ball interference rule."

What rule book? When I played 16" softball in Chicago, where the game originated, there was no such rule.

Bob

[azbigdawg]

The rule was put into place for 16" slow pitch... on a hit and run with a bad pitch, batters would hit the ball after it hits the ground TO PREVENT THE RUNNER FROM BEING PICKED OFF. This rule was put in to prevent that..the batter is declared out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by bluezebra
"Declaring a batter out for hitting a ball that has touched the ground is a 16" ball interference rule."

What rule book? When I played 16" softball in Chicago, where the game originated, there was no such rule.

Bob

ASA.

When I played, there was no such thing as a dead ball appeal, composite bats, restricted balls, stealing, double bases, etc. That doesn't mean I dismiss any notion they could presently exist.