DP / Flex and CR

[Dakota]

Originally posted by SC Ump
2. "Adams" (DP) batting fourth and "Washington" (F2) batting fifth. In the bottom of the first inning "Harrison" is CR for "Washington". In the top of the third, "Adams" plays defense for "Washington". In the bottom of the third, "Harrison" is CR for the "Adams." All legal.

Adams was the CR for Washington.

Harrison was not a CR at all. He was a pinch hitter for Cleveland, who re-entered 4 innings later.

C'mon, man, get it RIGHT!

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok, I will probably get hammered for this but here goes. 1st (simplified for my weak mind) in the top of the first inning only person labeled at F1 and F2 can have a CR, in bottom of 1st and all other innings whoever last person was that held the F1 and F2 position when the 3rd out was recorded can have a CR.

2nd I agree that the situation used above with the coach batting the DP then subbing the Flex (F1) for the DP and then trying to get a CR is unethical but is it illegal? I mean what rule specifically supports it not being allowed? You can subsitute the the Flex for the DP right? And you can have a CR for the person who last played F1 right? So I agree it is sleezy but what is the basis for asying it is not allowed by rule?

Not trying to start a fight just trying to understand. Also I agree that this could only happen twice with the original DP as that player would be out for the rest of the game, coach could sub another player for the original DP and keep going till he ran out of players.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
2nd I agree that the situation used above with the coach batting the DP then subbing the Flex (F1) for the DP and then trying to get a CR is unethical but is it illegal? I mean what rule specifically supports it not being allowed? You can subsitute the the Flex for the DP right? And you can have a CR for the person who last played F1 right? So I agree it is sleezy but what is the basis for asking it is not allowed by rule?

I don't have my rule books with me today, but a CR can only be used for a pitcher or catcher of record who bacame a BR through their own at bat.

The sub of Flex for the DP once the DP was on base was legal, but the Flex cannot now have a CR. The logic is simple - "Coach a CR is only allowed for the player who batted. Your F1 did not bat. No CR. If you insist, it will be a charged substitution."

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
... snip ... batting the DP then subbing the Flex (F1) for the DP and then trying to get a CR is unethical but is it illegal? I mean what rule specifically supports it not being allowed? You can subsitute the the Flex for the DP right? And you can have a CR for the person who last played F1 right? So I agree it is sleezy but what is the basis for asying it is not allowed by rule?... snip ...

It's the logical extension and official interpretation of NFHS 8-9-5 (2003 number).

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

I don't have my rule books with me today, but a CR can only be used for a pitcher or catcher of record who bacame a BR through their own at bat.

The sub of Flex for the DP once the DP was on base was legal, but the Flex cannot now have a CR. The logic is simple - "Coach a CR is only allowed for the player who batted. Your F1 did not bat. No CR. If you insist, it will be a charged substitution."

_____________________________________________
Tom,
What do you need a book for. You and Steve M. wrote
the rule. .
Good call.

[Roger Greene]

Originally posted by CecilOne

It's the logical extension and official interpretation of NFHS 8-9-5 (2003 number).

That as also one of the points of emphisis for 2004, (at least in the NC clinics) and the reason the interp was put on the site.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm have a hard time understanding why there is still a discussion on the CR.

The rule for the CR is the fielder walking away from the F1 and F2 positions ONLY may have a CR if those players, and only those players, reach base of their own accord the following half inning.

And yes, there is the top of the 1st exception where only the two players who have a 1 and 2 next to their name in the defensive position column have access to a CR if those players reach base of their own accord.

It doesn't make any different whether it is a DP, FLEX or anything else.

This is much like the IFR. The rule stands alone. The use and enforcement don't affect the application of any other rules. (IFR exception: the intentional drop is ignored when the IFR is applied.)

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

Adams was the CR for Washington.

Harrison was not a CR at all. He was a pinch hitter for Cleveland, who re-entered 4 innings later.

C'mon, man, get it RIGHT!

In spite of your pretty graphics, I disagree. However, since there is no substance to your answer I have nothing to debate. Having a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" discussion would be of no benefit.

[CecilOne]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota

Adams was the CR for Washington.

Harrison was not a CR at all. He was a pinch hitter for Cleveland, who re-entered 4 innings later.

C'mon, man, get it RIGHT! [/B]

Very funny, I hope !

[CecilOne]

I'm doing a coaches' briefing on rules tomorrow night and plan the following adaption of my earlier post as a handout. Any comments? BTW, the book does not say swaps can be made any number of times.
-------------------

Revised version posted below.

[Edited by CecilOne on Feb 12th, 2004 at 10:22 AM]

[Duke]

One thing you might want to mention to the coaches is that any movement of the DP/Flex must be reported to the ump.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by SC Ump
In spite of your pretty graphics, I disagree. However, since there is no substance to your answer I have nothing to debate. Having a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" discussion would be of no benefit.

Sigh. OK - perhaps here isn't the place for a joke that depends on historical references.

G. Washington - 1st President
J. Adams - VP to George (and also 2nd President, but that wasn't part of the reference; I guess I coulda said Adams then replaced Washington in the 9th inning...)

G. Cleveland - 22nd President
B. Harrison - 23rd President (for a single 4 year term)
G. Cleveland - 24th President

If ya hafta splain 'em they ain't funny. Oh, well.

[Edited by Dakota on Feb 11th, 2004 at 01:24 PM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne
I'm doing a coaches' briefing on rules tomorrow night and plan the following adaption of my earlier post as a handout. Any comments? BTW, the book does not say swaps can be made any number of times.

You'll recognize the "meat" of this post from my post on eteamz...

Start first by reminding them of what they already know to start with a baseline of things they understand: The rules concerning subs and re-entry DID NOT CHANGE! Subs bat where the starter batted. Players may reenter one time. Defensive position swaps are not subsitutions. All the same as before.

Then, explain the starting positions of the DP and Flex and how that affects them for the rest of the game:

The DP's starting position is on offense. If she is not playing offense she has left the game - someone is subbing for her.

The Flex's starting position is on defense. If she is not playing defense, she has left the game - someone is subbing for her.

Both the Flex and the DP may be subbed for in the usual ways. The sub takes on the position of Flex / DP (respectively).

Then, get to the specifics about DP/Flex they need to watch out for...

The only place the Flex may bat is for the DP.

The DP may play on defense for anyone. When she does, the player replaced on defense still bats in her usual position & has not left the game. This is a defensive position swap. (Of course, the Flex does not have a batting postion, so if the DP plays defense for the Flex, the Flex has left the game, as I said above).

When the DP goes in for the Flex, or vice versa, this must be reported to the umpire. Otherwise, it is an unreported substitute.

--------
As to your comment about defensive swaps with the DP, the ASA POE in 2003 addressed this. I haven't gotten my 2004 NFHS book, yet, but it is clearly a defensive position swap as long as the Flex is not involved ('cause if the Flex is not playing defense, she has left the game) - otherwise, it's the same as moving Sally from 2nd base to center field and Joan from center field to 2nd base - the coach can do this every pitch, if he wants to - barring a delay of game ruling by the umpire).

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne
D) DP/Flex switches change the number of players in the game any number of times during the game; but do not change the batting order and are not substitutions

Careful with this sweeping generalization. DP/Flex switches are "half substitutions" (my term) since one of the pair has left the game, and will use up her re-entry rights when/if she returns. However, the one of the pair that remains in the game has not been affected at all, wrt sub / reentry / etc.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Very funny, I hope !

Whew! At least Cecil got it!