Rule 3-5-E-1

[greymule]

We've been discussing force plays removed by a following runner passing another runner. How would an out for removing a helmet figure into this?

ASA Rule 3-5-E-1:

. . . Wearing the helmet improperly or removing the helmet during a live ball play and judged [sic] by the umpire to be a deliberate act shall cause the violator to be called out immediately. The ball remains live. Calling a runner out for removing a helmet does not remove force play situations. . . .

OK. Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 2 out. Daniels grounds to F5, who elects to tag Baker. Baker stops in the baseline. Abel scores. Charles stops on 2B, then removes her helmet and is called out. Apparently the force play at 3B is still in effect, and if F5 now tags Baker, the run does not count.

But if the defense does not get a force out on Baker or put Daniels out before she gets to 1B, the run would count.

What about these plays?:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, no outs. Charles gets a base on balls and starts to trot to 1B. F2 throws to 3B in an unsuccessful attempt to pick Abel off. Charles removes her helmet to switch to another one. Umpire calls Charles out for removing her helmet during a live ball play. Since the force play is not removed by Charles removing her helmet, is Baker awarded 2B anyway? And if Baker stays at 1B, can the defense appeal to 2B, the base that Baker was "forced" to but that she did not touch?

Abel on 1B, no out. Baker hits a high pop near 2B. Baker takes a step toward 1B, removes her helmet, is called out, and starts back toward her dugout. F4 drops the ball, but then picks it up with her foot touching 2B. Is Abel out at 2B?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule

OK. Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 2 out. Daniels grounds to F5, who elects to tag Baker. Baker stops in the baseline. Abel scores. Charles stops on 2B, then removes her helmet and is called out. Apparently the force play at 3B is still in effect, and if F5 now tags Baker, the run does not count.

But if the defense does not get a force out on Baker or put Daniels out before she gets to 1B, the run would count.

That's true, but I cannot see F5 stopping the play because R3 removed her helmet. It is not a dead ball. Even the dumbest SP player always continues with a play.

What about these plays?:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, no outs. Charles gets a base on balls and starts to trot to 1B. F2 throws to 3B in an unsuccessful attempt to pick Abel off. Charles removes her helmet to switch to another one. Umpire calls Charles out for removing her helmet during a live ball play. Since the force play is not removed by Charles removing her helmet, is Baker awarded 2B anyway? And if Baker stays at 1B, can the defense appeal to 2B, the base that Baker was "forced" to but that she did not touch?

A good umpire will not call the BR out on this play if her dugout was on the 1B side. I'm making this assumption based on the statement that the BR started toward 1B prior to swapping helmets.

Abel on 1B, no out. Baker hits a high pop near 2B. Baker takes a step toward 1B, removes her helmet, is called out, and starts back toward her dugout. F4 drops the ball, but then picks it up with her foot touching 2B. Is Abel out at 2B?

As long as it wasn't an intentional drop, yes.

[Steve M]

Gotta use some discretion with the enforcement of this rule - part of that will depend on the age & skill level involved. I'm pretty sure that the book and/or case book mention our discretion as to the intent of the rule and player safety. That being said.....

Play 1
Since you've taken the out for helmet removal, that's a timing play. Defense can still get a force, but they've gotta do it right away.

Play 2
Proper discretion would not call Charles out on this play. But since there's a helemt removal out, yes Baker is still awarded 2B. If Baker stays at 1B, the base ump should point and say "You, second base. Now."

Play 3
Gotta think about survivable calls on the field. Technically, Abel is out on the force at 2B.

Steve M

[mcrowder]

On the third play, I think this is a survivable call. Take the helmet situation out of it. If the ball is dropped, there's a force play, and Able must run. The helmet situation changes nothing.