Girls (JO) FP IP

[Dakota]

This thread may land like a lead balloon and get no responses, but I hope not.

I'd like to have a serious discussion about JO FP IP. ASA rules, including influence by upper levels actual practice, where "upper levels" includes Gold, NCAA, and Team USA.

This is about the only board that has an atmosphere similar to the umpire's room / tent at a tournament. That is, we can have pretty much umpire-to-umpire discussions. Sure, a few coaches / fans do drop by here from time-to-time, but I'd really like to avoid having this becoming a coaching rant as seen recently on eteamz or the NFHS board.

Pitchers push the envelope to see what will and will not be called. That will never change.

With runners on base, the IP call is a fairly high penalty call, so it is proper for the umpire to be sure of the call. Therefore, borderline IP violations should not (IMO) be called.

A fairly common practice that I don't call is the "foot roll" off the front of the plate. When on the bases, it is fairly easy to see.

The pitcher positions her heel only on the plate (or just touching the front edge), so that when she steps, the ball of her pivot foot is clearly in the dirt a shoe size in front of the plate when she pushes off. Do any of you call this? If not, why not? As I said, I usually don't call this, especially if there is a hole in front of the plate, unless she becomes blatant about it (i.e. more than just tipping the foot). Do you disagree?

Second, how about the influence of upper levels on leaping / hopping? Do the "loosy goosy" IP calls in Div 1 and Team USA cause you any hesitation at JO levels? It does give me pause, but I still call them. Now, I don't bother with trying to detect a small leap, but if it is clearly visible, I'll call it. Do you call this any differently in NFHS (where, persumably coaches have greater influence over assignments) than you do in "travel" ball (ASA, etc)? (i.e. are you more reluctant to call IP in NFHS?)

If you don't want to "go public" with how you handle this, I understand, but I am hoping for some open discussion.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Dakota
This thread may land like a lead balloon and get no responses, but I hope not.

I'd like to have a serious discussion about JO FP IP. ASA rules, including influence by upper levels actual practice, where "upper levels" includes Gold, NCAA, and Team USA.

This is about the only board that has an atmosphere similar to the umpire's room / tent at a tournament. That is, we can have pretty much umpire-to-umpire discussions. Sure, a few coaches / fans do drop by here from time-to-time, but I'd really like to avoid having this becoming a coaching rant as seen recently on eteamz or the NFHS board.

Pitchers push the envelope to see what will and will not be called. That will never change.

With runners on base, the IP call is a fairly high penalty call, so it is proper for the umpire to be sure of the call. Therefore, borderline IP violations should not (IMO) be called.

Agreed

Originally posted by Dakota
A fairly common practice that I don't call is the "foot roll" off the front of the plate. When on the bases, it is fairly easy to see.


The pitcher positions her heel only on the plate (or just touching the front edge), so that when she steps, the ball of her pivot foot is clearly in the dirt a shoe size in front of the plate when she pushes off. Do any of you call this? If not, why not? As I said, I usually don't call this, especially if there is a hole in front of the plate, unless she becomes blatant about it (i.e. more than just tipping the foot). Do you disagree?

Again, I agree. Unless I see an actual step forward with the pivot foot, I won't call this an IP.

Originally posted by Dakota
Second, how about the influence of upper levels on leaping / hopping? Do the "loosy goosy" IP calls in Div 1 and Team USA cause you any hesitation at JO levels? It does give me pause, but I still call them. Now, I don't bother with trying to detect a small leap, but if it is clearly visible, I'll call it. Do you call this any differently in NFHS (where, persumably coaches have greater influence over assignments) than you do in "travel" ball (ASA, etc)? (i.e. are you more reluctant to call IP in NFHS?)

I don't work any college level ball, so the interpretations and philosophies at that level do not influence the way I call my HS and ASA games. I agree with you regarding the small leap and/or replant. If it's borderline, I will more than likely not make that call. I need to see a clear violation. My philosophy is the same for ASA and HS. In my area, HS coaches do not influence our HS assignments.

Originally posted by Dakota
If you don't want to "go public" with how you handle this, I understand, but I am hoping for some open discussion.

Some random thoughts:

In my area, I don't see the IP being a big deal. I just don't see that much that needs to be called. We have a very strong ASA program here, as well as a very good umpire training system. There are also several pitching coaches in the area, that in my opinion, are not teaching illegal pitching methods.

One of the ways that I like to handle this issue is to watch the first few pitches by each pitcher in the first inning. My experience has been that if I make the IP call early, with no runners on base, the pitchers know that I am watching and I don't have any further trouble. Doesn't always work, but then again, IP around here is not that big an issue in the first place.

With all of the different pitching techniques being taught out there, I'm sure there are some that you could put on a slow-motion video, break down frame by frame, and determine yeah...that's illegal. In real life on the diamond, you don't have that luxury and have to make the call or no-call based on what you see in those fractions of a second. Bottom line: I'm not guessing an illegal pitch.

[greymule]

The severe penalty undoubtedly discourages umpires from calling borderline IPs. Call an IP that nobody would have said anything about, and you've just awakened a large sleeping dog that could chase you the rest of the game. Maybe the penalty should be simply a ball, as in SP. Would the same number of high or flat pitches be called in SP if runners advanced as penalty? The advance of runners could be reserved for outrageous IPs, like failing to release the ball on the delivery.

The crow hop, the most common IP, is almost never called unless the pitcher performs an actual hop in the air. Let's face it, if they drag the foot, the risk of IP being called is very low.

As far as the leap goes, I can't understand why pitchers do it, since it's hard to get anything on the pitch. Maybe they figure the motion will fool the batter.

Last season I called zero IPs in 125+ FP games. I also got zero arguments.

[David Robinson]

How many of you would observe 1st inning warm-up pitches and, if obvious IP noted, call over coach and pitcher to discuss/advise?

[greymule]

I don't make a practice of watching the warmups, but if I do see something, I will talk to the pitcher about it.

I do it in SP all the time, pointing up on high warmups to let the pitcher know the ceiling.

[Del-Blue]

I will always watch a pitcher warm up. I have stopped many illegal pitchers during her warm up. I have watched ASA pitchers take a step back during warm-ups, called the coach over, told them about it, and it never happened in the game. I talk to pitchers when I brush the PP off between innings, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Like everyone else said, I will not guess an illegal pitch. I think that is where coaches have the biggest problem. We know when it is illegal, they also know sometimes, but most of the time they think they saw it, and want us to call it.

High School coaches have no say in Delaware and Maryland about who umps their game, so that isn't an issue. The only college coach in Delaware that used to red line umps was U of D coach, and she likes me, so I haven't had any problems with her.

Like I said in an earlier post, I called more IP in the mens B national this year, than in the 15 years I have been umpiring. Again, if I'm not sure, it won't get called, but if I am sure I will call it, although with someone on base, I really, really, really have to be sure.
I also think they should take away the advancement of the runner and just make it a ball.

[whiskers_ump]

Tom,

I agree with everyone elses assestment and answers to your
post.

I try to call all the blatant IP's...I also watch for the
24" violations. There usually, at least after the first
full inning, is a hole in front, of the rubber, so that is
an easy give.

David,

IMO, you have to be careful when you observe a pitcher
during the warm-ups, they don't always pitch the same way
during the game. If you are doing this, and see something
I would first ask F2 if this is her normal delivery.

Good post Tom, especially after having to go through the one
over on eteamz...Don't feel that AD really got the message
that was being passed on.

glen

[bluejay]

In Texas Fed. playoff assignments are made by the coaches and, YES, that causes some umpires to turn their heads on the IP.
I won't go so far as to say these umpires are homers but the system of playoff selections does result in some questionable no calls. The system causes some other unsavory practices by a few umpires. Umpires who try to be too cozy with coaches do themselves no favors in the long run.

Warning a pitcher or coach re the IP may be OK prior to the game starting but one of my pet peeves once the game begins is a warning. Calling the IP is warning enough. If you don't call it you are being unfair to the opposing team by perhaps trying to make points with the team in violation. Most pitchers know what they are doing and if you call it right off they will stop. As I recently read on another board, you may not believe what you saw the first time and therefore not call the first one. But once you are sure, call it.

For survival as an umpire, don't nit pick. If the foot is 1/2 inch off the back of the rubber don't worry about it. In the roll over( I think you called it) ASA 6:1,A,2 says pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact and 6:1, c 2 says contact must be maintained until the forward step. I don't see a problem with what you are describing. What you will see is the foot sliding forward off the plate and that should be called if it is more than an inch or so.

The successful umpire will know the rule and how it applies to the game and he will not nit-pick but will call anything not border line.

The old saw about not gaining an advantage is not right. Any pitcher who is allowed to do less than other pitchers are required to do has an advantage. The key for the successful umpire is knowing how close to call things.

Jay Garner
Deputy UIC
Metro Fort Worth ASA

[Del-Blue]

Jay,

You are correct about a pitchers warm-up procedures. I have seen many pitchers start two or three steps behind the PP during warm-ups. She obviously isn't going to pitch that way during the game. What I look for, is her normal pitching motion, and if I see something, I will call the coach over and have him/her look, then ask is she pitches like that. Also during warm-ups I will ask my partner, if he/she is someone I know is a good ump, what they think.

And yes, If it is illegal, call it. Again, if not 110% sure I will keep watching more closely.

[Dakota]

Good discussion, guys.

Regarding warnings...

I make a distinction based on level of play. For "A" level travel ball, I don't give warnings, either pre-game or especially during the game. An A level pitcher should know what is legal.

For "B" level (especially younger ages early in the season), I will bring questionable motion to the attention of the coach pre-game. I don't give warnings while the pitcher is on the field (I either call it or not).

But for rec ball, I will instruct the coach at the half inning what I am seeing and ask that he work with his pitcher at their next practice. Understand, most of these rec pitchers are struggling to get into the strike zone, so calling IP is rather pointless.

If I see a clear IP in travel ball, I will call it as soon as I am sure of what I saw. The earlier the better.

Regarding coaches redlining and/or selecting their "own" umpires for games or playoffs, if the state federation can't see the clear conflict of interest this places both coaches and umpires in, they have blinders on. I know it is a common practice in school ball, I just find it amazing that it is allowed to continue.

For those of you who visit eteamz and/or the NFHS boards... My guess is that this is at the bottom of the complaints with the Nebraska HS playoffs.

[oppool]

I do watch pitchers warming up and do understand some pitchers warm-up different then they actually will pitch in the game BUT lower levels I will usally talk with the pitcher and coach right away just to let em know what I am seeing so if it needs corrected hopefully it will be done before the game starts. At upper levels, I dont talk with them during warm up I just make a mental note so if they our doing IP I catch it at the beginning before runners get on, so hopefully it will be corrected at that time. When runners are on base for me to call the IP it will have to be something that leaves no doubt that there was an IP action that just happen for me to call it. In most cases border line IP I will try to drop a quick suggestion to the pitcher's coach after the inning. If not corrected by next inning try to call it early.

As for any influence from what I have seen not called at college levels has no influence on what I call or for that matter for what I see not called by fellow umpires at the same level.

If I see it, and I know I am correct I will call it IP


JMOs

Don

[mick]

Originally posted by IRRISH_MAFIA
I agree also.

Noted.
mick

[CecilOne]

I agree with most everything said above. On the field, I'm not thinking about league/school politics, who is the better team, which coach likes me, etc. I try to call exactly what I see without regard to any of that. Note I said try. However, I have sometimes ignored an illegal pitch and then realized I did it because of peer pressure. Somewhere, last spring I think, I wrote a longer commentary on this with a list of reasons why this happens to many of us, not just me. I know I have lost assignments and received lower peer evaluations because I will make unpopular calls, IP included. I also know that if everyone on this forum took a blood oath to call every IP they see, it would only make a small dent in the game with the other thousands of "umpires".