Proposed ASA Changes for FP & General Rules

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

So what, isn't sports about finding advantages?
Doesn't this imply that it's a lead in to eventually eliminating the requirement that pitchers push off only from the pitching plate?

PLEASE! This is not needed. See SCUmp non-jackass comments above. The defense caused the play in the first place, unless it really was caught. At worst, the BR would have to stop running when the umpire declares the out. And let's start calling it U3K to avoid half the questions about it.

Although the world would make more sense if NFHS and NCAA had adopted the name along with the rule, having the same name will be better.

As much as I respect the views of Tom&Tom, this means that when the fielder is reaching, stretching and concentrating on the ball that the runner can hit them when they need protection most.

Good rule, but does it belong in the ASA book or just in each tournament's rules. I usually call "take the field" right after the pre-game if I'm ready and then announce "the clock is starting NOW".

Terrible idea. The only reason for shorthanded is to allow everyone to play without risking forfeits on injuries and other "emergencies"; not to manipulate the lineup.

Thanks, Mike.
My suggestions would be making more of the POE into actual rules, putting the CR rule in with lineups/subs instead of baserunning and providing cases to conform to rules, especially changes.

[Dakota]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CecilOne

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

So what, isn't sports about finding advantages?
Doesn't this imply that it's a lead in to eventually eliminating the requirement that pitchers push off only from the pitching plate?

After reading Andy's explanation from the ASA National Staff, I am beginning to warm to this rule change. Clearly, (IMO) something needs to be done to address leaps, crow hops, etc.

Considering the momentum of established practice in the umpire community (including getting assigned games at the upper levels), perhaps ASA concluded that attacking it head-on with trying to place greater emphasis on enforcement of the rules as written would not get very far. In that light, this is a very creative approach. LHIW.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne

As much as I respect the views of Tom&Tom, this means that when the fielder is reaching, stretching and concentrating on the ball that the runner can hit them when they need protection most

If this change is adopted, the end result will most likely be (IMO, and assuming the rule is enforced as changed) coaches teaching proper defensive positioning. There remains the issue of what constitutes "possession" under this rule, and this is where a revised POE will help.

[IRISHMAFIA]

To address two issues raised.

Good rule, but does it belong in the ASA book or just in each tournament's rules. I usually call "take the field" right after the pre-game if I'm ready and then announce "the clock is starting NOW".

Remember, the book is for Championship Play and is already defined in ASA Rule 5.10. My offered change is to move the starting time from the "first pitch" to the end of the pre-game to try and eliminate all the last minute team meetings, instructions and warm-up.

The idea is to get the point across that the time they waste in the beginning of the game can come back to haunt them and hopefully, they will have their team ready to play instead of using 115 minutes to get in a game with a 100 minute limit.

Also, the elimination of the "about to receive" IS a safety issue as it will mean the defender needs to learn how to accept a throw and THEN move into the basepath which is the way it is supposed to be done to begin. It is my opinion that coaches who believe entering the basepath prior to receiving the ball are fools, especially at the youth level.

This is the rule at the international level and it works quite well.

It also eliminates the umpire's role of judging the position of the ball. Either it is in possesion of the fielder or it isn't.

[Dakota]

Mike,

How about Case Play 10.8-1? Will there be a rule change to more clearly support that interpretation?

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
... snip ...
Also, the elimination of the "about to receive" IS a safety issue as it will mean the defender needs to learn how to accept a throw and THEN move into the basepath which is the way it is supposed to be done to begin. It is my opinion that coaches who believe entering the basepath prior to receiving the ball are fools, especially at the youth level.

This is the rule at the international level and it works quite well.

The players I see do not have international level skill. Also consider the throw pulling the fielder into the basepath, not coaching. Yes, "accept a throw and THEN move into the basepath" is the right way, but we already know that every coach won't get every fielder to do it right, although I certainly agree they should not be there deliberately.

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
It also eliminates the umpire's role of judging the position of the ball. Either it is in possesion of the fielder or it isn't.

Judgement is what we're about.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

The players I see do not have international level skill. Also consider the throw pulling the fielder into the basepath, not coaching. Yes, "accept a throw and THEN move into the basepath" is the right way, but we already know that every coach won't get every fielder to do it right, although I certainly agree they should not be there deliberately.

I wasn't aware rules were to be viewed as exclusive to a persons schedule. The players and coaches will never even see competitive ball if they don't learn to play the game in which they are participating. If that is their attitude toward the game, there really wouldn't be any need for an umpire.

And I don't care about the throw drawing the fielder into the basepath, that is still obstruction.

[WestMichBlue]

"allow the runner to leave the base in FP when the ball leaves the pitcher's hand OR "when the pivot foot leaves the pitching plate on the delivery."

"After reading Andy's explanation from the ASA National Staff, I am beginning to warm to this rule change. Clearly, (IMO) something needs to be done to address leaps, crow hops, etc."

This is crazy. I can't believe we are even discussing it.

Just how much time will elaspe between the time the pivot foot starts to drag and when the stride foot lands and the pitch is delivered? A fraction of a second? And a runner is going to gain two steps in that time? Maybe if they are shot out of that cannon the circus left behind, but I don't think they are doing it on their own.

I don't know what you guys do, but I try to judge when the pitcher's hand reaches the bottom of the arc, assuming that the ball will be released within a few milliseconds. Before the hand reaches that position I have to leave the pitcher to focus on the runner's tag foot - to asure that it does not break contact with the bag before I judged the pitcher's to be at the bottom. Now you are suggesting that the foot can leave the base while the pitcher's arm is somewhere on the down swing. (Worst case, just coming over the top.)

From the B position I cannot tell when the pitcher's pivot foot breaks contact with the plate. The motion is directly away from me. I would have to stay focused on the pitcher's foot and not sure how I am going to see the runner's foot.

Just for kicks, I stuck a pitching video in the VCR and tried to clock the time between the drag and release. Couldn't do it! To quick!

For what its worth, I am seeing more and more top level pitchers abandoning the leap 'n drag style. A lot of pitching coaches are pushing the basic "K" style. They are willing to give up a little speed for consistancy - thus accuracy. In a few years nobody will be having this argument about umpires unwilling to call the leap or crowhop.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"allow the runner to leave the base in FP when the ball leaves the pitcher's hand OR "when the pivot foot leaves the pitching plate on the delivery."

"After reading Andy's explanation from the ASA National Staff, I am beginning to warm to this rule change. Clearly, (IMO) something needs to be done to address leaps, crow hops, etc."

This is crazy. I can't believe we are even discussing it.

Just how much time will elaspe between the time the pivot foot starts to drag and when the stride foot lands and the pitch is delivered? A fraction of a second? And a runner is going to gain two steps in that time? Maybe if they are shot out of that cannon the circus left behind, but I don't think they are doing it on their own.

No argument from me, I agree. I think the cause and affect is overstated, but apparently, someone is sold on this idea.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

I wasn't aware rules were to be viewed as exclusive to a persons schedule. The players and coaches will never even see competitive ball if they don't learn to play the game in which they are participating. If that is their attitude toward the game, there really wouldn't be any need for an umpire.

And I don't care about the throw drawing the fielder into the basepath, that is still obstruction.


[/B]

Come on, Mike, did you really think I meant my schedule rather than the vast majority of players who do not have international skill?

With the proposal, it will be obstruction if no ball possession; but it's not obstruction under the current rule if about to receive. My point was that we keep looking at this as where the coach teaches the player to be, without regard for player imperfections and imperfect throws. And we are discussing the aspects and side effects of a hypothetical rule change.

[Edited by CecilOne on Nov 7th, 2003 at 08:02 AM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

No argument from me, I agree. I think the cause and affect is overstated, but apparently, someone is sold on this idea.

Maybe so... IMO, this rule is aimed at the upper levels of ball in Championship play with agressive base runners and a full umpiring crew.

The rule will have absolutely no effect in one umpire games, or even two man games with runners in certain positions.

But, the little extra umph from the pitchers, resulting the little hop and/or skip & second push off is done in game critical situations. Runners will be watching the foot instead of the hand with leap and drag style pitchers - umpires, too.

Will it matter? Maybe not, but I can guarantee you no amount of ranting by national staff on calling the leap / crow hop more vigorously at the 18U Gold level will overcome the coach's influence in getting assignments in HS and college ball. It would require a coordinated effort by NFHS, NCAA, State HS Associations, and ASA to effect a change.

The alternative would be to legalize what the pitchers are actually doing.

It is a creative approach and may be worth a shot.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

Maybe so... IMO, this rule is aimed at the upper levels of ball in Championship play with agressive base runners and a full umpiring crew.

The rule will have absolutely no effect in one umpire games, or even two man games with runners in certain positions.

But, the little extra umph from the pitchers, resulting the little hop and/or skip & second push off is done in game critical situations. Runners will be watching the foot instead of the hand with leap and drag style pitchers - umpires, too.

Will it matter? Maybe not, but I can guarantee you no amount of ranting by national staff on calling the leap / crow hop more vigorously at the 18U Gold level will overcome the coach's influence in getting assignments in HS and college ball. It would require a coordinated effort by NFHS, NCAA, State HS Associations, and ASA to effect a change.

The alternative would be to legalize what the pitchers are actually doing.

It is a creative approach and may be worth a shot.

I think it is just a mind game, myself.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

Come on, Mike, did you really think I meant my schedule rather than the vast majority of players who do not have international skill?

With the proposal, it will be obstruction if no ball possession; but it's not obstruction under the current rule if about to receive. My point was that we keep looking at this as where the coach teaches the player to be, without regard for player imperfections and imperfect throws. And we are discussing the aspects and side effects of a hypothetical rule change.

[Edited by CecilOne on Nov 7th, 2003 at 08:02 AM] [/B]

Of course not, but my point is that just because they don't play at that level now, what are their chances of even thinking of reaching that point without learning how to play the game correctly? Where do you think the girls that play for world championships started their journey?

Remember, these rule are for Championship Play, but this particular one is meant to keep the defenders out of harms way while giving the runners a clear path to the base to which they are entitled. Sounds more of a safety concern on both sides of the field than anything else.

I've worked international ball and it works. The skill has nothing to do with it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Tomorrow is the big day. The face masks/guards will undoubtedly be mandated beginning Jan 1, 2005.

Other probabilities:

Shorthanded rule will not change.

Flex will replace DEFO

An illegal runner will not be ruled out if discovered

The time the clock starts will remain at the moment the first pitch is delivered

FP delivery of push and drag will remain the same for all but men's FP

The proposal to change the call to "no pitch" when a batter is completely out of the front of the batter's box is hit by the pitch will be rejected

A proposed change to allow the runner to leave the base when the pitcher's foot loses contact with the pitcher's plate or release has been withdrawn

The words "or not about to receive a thrown ball" concerning obstruction will be approved

The rule reinstating an "interference" call for a BR running to 1B when not entitled will be rejected.

Remember, these are only observations drawn from the recommendations of the committees. It does not mean they will not be resurrected and/or changed on the floor during the general council meeting.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
An illegal runner will not be ruled out if discovered

FP delivery of push and drag will remain the same for all but men's FP

The proposal to change the call to "no pitch" when a batter is completely out of the front of the batter's box is hit by the pitch will be rejected

Without going back and searching the entire thread, I don't remember these proposals being discussed before.

If memory serves, an illegal runner is DQed but not declared out, so presumably there was a proposal to change this to an out?

On #2, were there proposals to change the pitching motion? I remember the one about runners leaving & the pitcher's pivot foot, but I don't recall a proposal to change the motion per se.

#3 is also new to me.

All-in-all, I think it has been great to have Mike give us insider updates from the conference.

Thanks a bunch, Mike!