What is the call here?

[Billyball]

So I am doing a softball title game Sunday. One man system. This whole play at game speed happened in 1-2 seconds.

Runners on first and second with one out. Batter rips a shot back to the pitcher who short hops it then turns to fire it to the SS running over to cover second to get runner on first going to second and get a possible DP at first.

Runner on second is not sure if the ball was caught on the line drive by the pitcher so he does not move but stays on the bag. Pitchers throw hits the runner who is still on second right before SS is ready to catch it crossing the bag, then SS runs into runner still on second as ball is rolling away.

Everyone on batting team who saw the pitcher short hop it is yelling run, run so Runner on second realizes ball is live and proceeds to third.

What is your call here? No call and play on or runner interference?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Billyball

So I am doing a softball title game Sunday. One man system. This whole play at game speed happened in 1-2 seconds.

Runners on first and second with one out. Batter rips a shot back to the pitcher who short hops it then turns to fire it to the SS running over to cover second to get runner on first going to second and get a possible DP at first.

Runner on second is not sure if the ball was caught on the line drive by the pitcher so he does not move but stays on the bag. Pitchers throw hits the runner who is still on second right before SS is ready to catch it crossing the bag, then SS runs into runner still on second as ball is rolling away.

Everyone on batting team who saw the pitcher short hop it is yelling run, run so Runner on second realizes ball is live and proceeds to third.

What is your call here? No call and play on or runner interference?

The call is obstruction. The runner didn't intentionally interfere with a thrown ball. But, by being crashed into, she was delayed in her advance to third.

[Billyball]

Originally Posted by youngump

The call is obstruction. The runner didn't intentionally interfere with a thrown ball. But, by being crashed into, she was delayed in her advance to third.

All runners were safe when play was over. Decision was who obstructed who if any.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Billyball

All runners were safe when play was over. Decision was who obstructed who if any.

Well, as described, there was only 1 collision. It happened with a fielder who was not in possession of the ball and a base runner who had not interfered with a thrown ball.

I'll agree with the opinion that we have an OBS call on F6.

[Billyball]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well, as described, there was only 1 collision. It happened with a fielder who was not in possession of the ball and a base runner who had not interfered with a thrown ball.

I'll agree with the opinion that we have an OBS call on F6.

Defensive team said baserunner on second obstructed because after ball was hit second was not his bag anymore.

This is what confused me.

If a runner's interference is caused by his being positioned at a legally occupied base and the fielder is trying to make a play on a batted ball in the vicinity of the base, interference is not called.

With runners on first and second After the ball was hit could the runner on second "legally" occupy second base?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Billyball

After the ball was hit could the runner on second "legally" occupy second base?

Until R2 reaches it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

The call is obstruction. The runner didn't intentionally interfere with a thrown ball. But, by being crashed into, she was delayed in her advance to third.

The only thing that matters is "SS runs into runner ".
R1 is "protected" between 2nd and 3rd, but no reason in the OP for any award.

As to the question of INT, nothing said about intent.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking USA

It is not INT. The runner committed no act let alone one which interfered with a play.

As presented, by definition it is not OBS. The runner was not making any attempt to advance so there was no movement to deter.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking USA

As presented, by definition it is not OBS. The runner was not making any attempt to advance so there was no movement to deter.

Irish,
Can being forced be interpreted the same as an actual attempt?

Similar:
- reaching 1st, bumps F3, stays there
- ball gets away from fielder at a base, who lands on runner

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Irish,
Can being forced be interpreted the same as an actual attempt?

Show me a rule which states a runner must leave a base

[Billyball]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Show me a rule which states a runner must leave a base

OK, called an ASA official that I know and basically he said

"No call is the correct call" Only other call would be SS interference for impeding runner to third.

Was told after ball was hit and fielded by the pitcher the runner on second can stay there if he wants and does not have to move as long he does not "Intentionally interfere"

When the thrown ball hit the runner on second it is the same as if it hit him 5 ft or 25ft off the bag. Live ball and finish the play.

Of course if the SS fielded the ball and tagged him before tagging second he would be out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Billyball

OK, called an ASA official that I know and basically he said

"No call is the correct call" Only other call would be SS interference for impeding runner to third.

Was told after ball was hit and fielded by the pitcher the runner on second can stay there if he wants and does not have to move as long he does not "Intentionally interfere"

When the thrown ball hit the runner on second it is the same as if it hit him 5 ft or 25ft off the bag. Live ball and finish the play.

Of course if the SS fielded the ball and tagged him before tagging second he would be out.

Only other call would be SS obstruction for impeding runner to third.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As presented, by definition it is not OBS. The runner was not making any attempt to advance so there was no movement to deter.

I know I'm treading out onto very shaky ground here, but unless we're visualizing something very different happening I don't think this is the rule.

Here's what I saw from the OP. The shortstop ran into a stationary runner knocking that runner off the bag and off balance such that when she started toward third she was slower getting started and further from third. Hence I have obstruction.

What I read from what you wrote is that since she wasn't trying to advance when the contact occurred there can be no obstruction even if the contact later impeded her. Consider this play. Popup to moderate depth left field with a runner on third. Runner is planning to tag all the way. Seeing that the fly ball is likely deep enough to score the runner, F5 tackles the runner. F5 disengages completely from the runner, the ball is then caught and the runner stands up now too delayed to score. Surely, this is obstruction? And if that's obstruction why isn't the OP.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

I know I'm treading out onto very shaky ground here, but unless we're visualizing something very different happening I don't think this is the rule.

Here's what I saw from the OP. The shortstop ran into a stationary runner knocking that runner off the bag and off balance such that when she started toward third she was slower getting started and further from third. Hence I have obstruction.

What I read from what you wrote is that since she wasn't trying to advance when the contact occurred there can be no obstruction even if the contact later impeded her.

There is nothing in the OP that indicates the runner even looked in the direction of 3rd base let alone attempt to advance in that direction.

Consider this play. Popup to moderate depth left field with a runner on third. Runner is planning to tag all the way. Seeing that the fly ball is likely deep enough to score the runner, F5 tackles the runner. F5 disengages completely from the runner, the ball is then caught and the runner stands up now too delayed to score. Surely, this is obstruction? And if that's obstruction why isn't the OP.

You think you can compare physical assault to a poor defensive play?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You think you can compare physical assault to a poor defensive play?

Sure. Because one really good way to truly understand a rule is to take it to the extreme.

In this particular case, the thing you used as a difference between the two plays was maliciousness.(*) Unfortunately, there's nothing in the rule that let's you rule differently based on intent. Obstruction is obstruction whether done with malice aforethought or incompetence.
The thing I think you should have grasped on to if you want to distinguish the plays is more what Manny alluded to in his reply. That he didn't believe that in the OP the runner was impeded by the time she decided to go to third.
That is to say, the rule is that a runner need not be physically advancing at the time of contact for it to be obstruction as long as the contact impedes them from advancing before they have recovered from the impact.

If so, then we have this play even a little more ridiculous but illustrating the point. Towering fly ball hit to the same spot. We can finish this whole argument while the ball is in the air. F5 again takes out the runner. She gets back up and A) resets and is fully ready to tag when the ball is touched or B) resets but is still off balance when the ball is touched

A) This is not obstruction. (Eject at the end of the play but) she advances at her own risk.
B) This is obstruction. She wasn't fully recovered at the time she was ready to advance so the contact hindered her. She cannot be put out between 3rd and Home.

(*) My apologies if I'm overreading what you wrote. I took it as (ignoring the implied part about it being a stupid argument): the play you outlined is obviously obstruction because it was **malicious contact** which is nothing like the defensive ineptitude in the OP.