Two runners at a base

[CecilOne]

This happened last night in that other sport. Any rule comments based on softball other than the abandonment difference? If so, USA, NFHS, USSSA, etc.?


With runners at the corners, New York's Neil Walker hit a dribbler to pitcher Richard Bleier, who caught Giancarlo Stanton in a rundown between third and home. Gary Sanchez advanced from first to third while Stanton was hung up, and catcher Caleb Joseph eventually chased Stanton back toward third as well.

That's when it got weird. Stanton ran through the base and into foul territory, giving himself up. Joseph first tagged Sanchez, then chased down Stanton, thinking he'd turned a double play. By the book, if both Sanchez and Stanton had remained on third base, Sanchez would have been called out upon Joseph's tag.

Third base umpire Ron Kulpa only called out Stanton, though, and after the umpires conferred, the call stood. The ruling on the field was because Stanton gave himself up, there never technically were two runners on third base.
Meals said after the game that when Stanton ran past third base, Sanchez should have been ruled to have passed the lead runner — an automatic out for Sanchez.

"Then Stanton had the right to come back and touch third before being tagged or be called out for abandoning his effort," Meals said.

[RKBUmp]

Not buying the runner passing claim, if I'm following correctly the lead runner ran through 3rd toward left and veered off into foul territory, not back toward 2nd. No one passed anyone on the basepaths.

[jmkupka]

As soon as he runs beyond the bag 3 feet in any direction except directly towards home, he’s out of the basepath and immediately out. If he breaks to the right he’s running the bases in reverse order, making a travesty of the game, and immediately out.
Sanchez didn’t do anything wrong by standing there and unless he was he was tagged at the split second Stanton was on the base then he would not be out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

As soon as he runs beyond the bag 3 feet in any direction except directly towards home, he’s out of the basepath and immediately out.

If avoiding a tag, likely in this case, but required.

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Sanchez didn’t do anything wrong by standing there and unless he was he was tagged at the split second Stanton was on the base then he would not be out.

Stanton is entitled to that base until he is out.

[jmkupka]

he's entitled to it, but my point is, Sanchez has to be tagged at the moment Stanton is on the bag. Sounds like Stanton overran it, so that moment is small.

I'm guessing, once he's on the "far side" of 3b (away from HP), fair or foul, he can be considered running the bases in reverse order, and the fielder shouldn't be required to pursue him past that point.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Maybe in baseball, it should have been a DP:

"According to the official rule, a runner may be deemed to have passed a preceding (lead) runner based on his actions, or the actions of the lead runner. The official rule cites a play where a runner -- like Stanton -- is caught in a rundown and races back to third base. Before being tagged, the lead runner runs beyond third base into left field, with the trailing runner -- Sanchez -- now in front of him. As a result, the trailing runner is ruled out and third base is left unoccupied."

When I watched the replay, at no point in time were both runners touching the base.

I don't have that in softball unless someone can point me to a specific rule or case play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

he's entitled to it, but my point is, Sanchez has to be tagged at the moment Stanton is on the bag. Sounds like Stanton overran it, so that moment is small.

OK, still ignoring the abandonment difference and the passing or not; does the bolded apply?

I think the lead runner (Stanton) "owns" the base as long as not advanced to the next base/plate.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OK, still ignoring the abandonment difference and the passing or not;
does the bolded apply?

If both are touching the base one of them is out when tagged. Force play or not determinmes who.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

As soon as he runs beyond the bag 3 feet in any direction except directly towards home, he’s out of the basepath and immediately out.

Only if to avoid a tag. It was here, but it only applies of doing it to avoid a tag.

If he breaks to the right he’s running the bases in reverse order, making a travesty of the game, and immediately out.

Nope. Don't even think this.

Sanchez didn’t do anything wrong by standing there and unless he was he was tagged at the split second Stanton was on the base then he would not be out.

Stanton never re-touched.

Comments embedded.

As for passing I don't know if that has ever been resolved for the situation as it happened last night. I've seen it answered both ways.

[SWFLguy]

All goes to show you that "goofy" things can happen at any level of ball. This is something you'd be more likely to see in a lower level JV game. When it does your brain says, "what the hell was that?" It's why umpires get paid the big money.

[Manny A]

I've heard the argument that a trail runner "passes" a lead runner when that trail runner is physically closer to the next base than the lead runner. So when Stanton overran third (presumably down the foul line), he put himself further away from home than Sanchez, thereby putting Sanchez "past" Stanton. But that argument was under baseball rules; I don't know that the same thing would be ruled in softball.

As for abandonment in softball, I wouldn't rule abandonment on "Ms. Stanton" if she overran third base, because abandonment rules require a runner to enter DBT. Only in NCAA Softball does the abandonment rule consider a runner who demonstrates no willingness to run the bases by heading to her position or toward the dugout. She can be called out while she's still in LBT. But if this happened in a college game, I wouldn't immediately come up with an abandonment call here unless I see the runner head toward her dugout after overrunning third base.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

All goes to show you that "goofy" things can happen at any level of ball. This is something you'd be more likely to see in a lower level JV game. When it does your brain says, "what the hell was that?" It's why umpires get paid the big money.

Goofy yes but Stanton's job was to stay in the rundown long enough for Sanchez to get to 3B. Defense misplayed the rundown and caused the goofy thing.