NCAA rules clinic

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Old Rule:
8.5.1.1 Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead as long as she immediately participates in the game.

If F6 does not come to bat in the next half-inning, the substitution can take place when her team takes the field on defense.

That didn't help.

A defensive substitute is immediately participating in the game. The change can come in the middle of a half inning.

Not sure what you mean by "if F6 does not come to bat ..." If F6 is scheduled to bat 7th next half-inning, we don't know if she will come to bat in the next half-inning or not.

[CecilOne]

Making a change is not that difficult and when you make it, the change is effective immediately.

Making a change is not that difficult and when you make it, the change is effective immediately.

Making a change is not that difficult and when you make it, the change is effective immediately.

[jmkupka]

the comment about "immediately participating in the game" is what I think most complicates what is an incredibly simple rule.

A player is "participating in a the game" by just sitting on the bench, waiting for her at-bat, which could be as many as 8 batters away.

For a DP, she is "participating in the game" while she sits on the bench as her team is getting beat up on defense for a 1/2 hour, and her at-bat is up to 8 batters away.

If she's in the batting lineup, she's "participating in the game". Period.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

That didn't help.

A defensive substitute is immediately participating in the game. The change can come in the middle of a half inning.

Not sure what you mean by "if F6 does not come to bat ..." If F6 is scheduled to bat 7th next half-inning, we don't know if she will come to bat in the next half-inning or not.

Notice in my play, the third out was recorded on the play. As such, in the old NCAA rule, F6 could not be removed until due up to bat or when she was returning to defense. In other words, the NCAA messed up the concept of a substitution by claiming that players waiting to bat but not actually at bat were not participating in the game. This year they fixed it and it works like every other code. But they did it in a way that is still leaving some people messed up on the subject.
(Or my understanding of what's up is wrong.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

If a player is in the batting order, the player is a game participant

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If a player is in the batting order, the player is a game participant

Exactly!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Exactly!

I agree. What I can't tell is if you're trying to disagree with something I said or just make a point about how utterly ridiculous the previous NCAA interpretation was.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

I agree. What I can't tell is if you're trying to disagree with something I said or just make a point about how utterly ridiculous the previous NCAA interpretation was.

I'm simply stating I agree with Mike's statement that I quoted.

What is ridiculous, IMO, is how much this notion of "projected substitutions" and "participating in the game" is over-thought to the point that the rules are written in such a confusing and convoluted manner that it leads to all kinds of spurious interpretations by clinicians and application by umpires.

The game naturally has players who are legally participating in the game who are sitting on the bench. Making some kind of convoluted rule to special case a sub/projected sub depending on whether the team is on offense or defense (as NCAA did previously) reveals a lack of understanding of the game itself, IMO.

When the sub is announced to the plate umpire, the plate umpire notes the change on his lineup card, and the change takes effect immediately, with all that implies for future substitutions, re-entries (for those rules that allow re-entry), etc.

What the actual player does at that point depends on whether the team is on offense or defense, and if on offense, where that player is in the batting order relative to who is at bat, etc. None of this has anything whatsoever to do with a "projected sub" or whether the sub is now "participating in the game"... the sub was participating in the game the moment the umpire changed his lineup card.

If the umpire cannot make the change to his lineup at that point because the player currently in the lineup is going to stay there until something else happens in the future, THAT is a projected sub, and that substitution cannot be made until later.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If the umpire cannot make the change to his lineup at that point because the player currently in the lineup is going to stay there until something else happens in the future, THAT is a projected sub, and that substitution cannot be made until later.

To put it in perspective, IMO the most common attempt at a projected substitute, at least in SP, would be a change like, "Jim is batting for Bob. Bob will reenter". The appropriate response by the umpire should be, "Jim for Bob. Coach, give me the reentry when you would like it to occur."

And before someone goes, "but that is coaching", it is not. It is the umpire telling the coach that s/he is not accepting the inappropriate change with cause.