NCAA rules clinic

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

I agree. What I can't tell is if you're trying to disagree with something I said or just make a point about how utterly ridiculous the previous NCAA interpretation was.

I'm simply stating I agree with Mike's statement that I quoted.

What is ridiculous, IMO, is how much this notion of "projected substitutions" and "participating in the game" is over-thought to the point that the rules are written in such a confusing and convoluted manner that it leads to all kinds of spurious interpretations by clinicians and application by umpires.

The game naturally has players who are legally participating in the game who are sitting on the bench. Making some kind of convoluted rule to special case a sub/projected sub depending on whether the team is on offense or defense (as NCAA did previously) reveals a lack of understanding of the game itself, IMO.

When the sub is announced to the plate umpire, the plate umpire notes the change on his lineup card, and the change takes effect immediately, with all that implies for future substitutions, re-entries (for those rules that allow re-entry), etc.

What the actual player does at that point depends on whether the team is on offense or defense, and if on offense, where that player is in the batting order relative to who is at bat, etc. None of this has anything whatsoever to do with a "projected sub" or whether the sub is now "participating in the game"... the sub was participating in the game the moment the umpire changed his lineup card.

If the umpire cannot make the change to his lineup at that point because the player currently in the lineup is going to stay there until something else happens in the future, THAT is a projected sub, and that substitution cannot be made until later.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If the umpire cannot make the change to his lineup at that point because the player currently in the lineup is going to stay there until something else happens in the future, THAT is a projected sub, and that substitution cannot be made until later.

To put it in perspective, IMO the most common attempt at a projected substitute, at least in SP, would be a change like, "Jim is batting for Bob. Bob will reenter". The appropriate response by the umpire should be, "Jim for Bob. Coach, give me the reentry when you would like it to occur."

And before someone goes, "but that is coaching", it is not. It is the umpire telling the coach that s/he is not accepting the inappropriate change with cause.

[CecilOne]

When I first read the OP, I thought NCAA was making projected subs allowed.
Now, it seems they were just reinforcing the prohibition.
Even though I don't care about NCAA anymore, I wonder if those who do might be confused by this.

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Some very good points were made in this topic, especially the later ones by IM & D. As long as USA and NFHS keep the current rule, which are easy to handle, fine with me.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

When I first read the OP, I thought NCAA was making projected subs allowed.
Now, it seems they were just reinforcing the prohibition.
Even though I don't care about NCAA anymore, I wonder if those who do might be confused by this.

The confusion arose by what constituted a "projected sub." Prior to 2018 (and 2017 for NFHS), the substitution rules basically stated when the sub was in the game. On defense, this is easy, when they take their position. Offense is different, because a coach could tell you that during the inning exchange, that the 'second batter will be #X'" Now, the rules in all three codes did not prohibit it, it was the interpretation that it was not allowed, especially from the (highly respected) former NCAA SRE.

Flash back to 2016, I'm sitting in Indy for the NCAA clinic, the new SRE re-enforcing the interpretation. Question arises about reentering the DP after she has been removed while on bases (in that she is not unreported for her next return at bat). New SRE is taken aback, works into a corner, first replying "why would a coach want to do that?" (crowd audibly gasps) and then says: "well, that would be ok, because they are going back to the original line up." (crowd does more than gasps). We walk away with 1) only allowing offense sub either at bat or on bases and 2) the DP can reenter without batting.

The 2016 NFHS change and 2018-2019 NCAA change are (IMO) only clarifications against the interpretation. Now you can enter players on offense without the batter in the batter's box or on bases (or reenter the DP). Period. Only scope of the rule change.

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Some very good points were made in this topic, especially the later ones by IM & D. As long as USA and NFHS keep the current rule, which are easy to handle, fine with me.

Well, I didn't mention USA softall in the above. Does USA softball have an official interpretation?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Well, I didn't mention USA softall in the above. Does USA softball have an official interpretation?

I don't know about written or published without looking, just that we apply the logic expressed by Irish and Dakota above; and your comment
"you can enter players on offense without the batter in the batter's box or on bases (or reenter the DP). Period."
pretend :thumps up icon:

Basically the lineup is just a document of who is in or not; regardless of what they are doing at the time.

Note: USA pool play lineups do not change that.