Passing a preceding runner

[Little Jimmy]

Working in the C ball world last weekend. This convoluted play happened.

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in), R2 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R3 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Rules set? What is a C ball world?

[Little Jimmy]

USSSA, but any place would be a good start. C ball. Not A. Not B. But C. Maybe a step above D ball that weekend. It was hard to tell.

[teebob21]

I don't work USSSA but I have two outs here.

R1 (starting on 3B) is out on the play at the plate. The batter/runner, who ended up leaving the field of play by entering the dugout, is also out for sure...and is maybe out already for passing a leading runner. R2 can't be called out since the trail runner gets called out for passing a leading runner....in this case, the R3/BR.

2 outs, R2 on 2B. New batter, please. This is definitely Class C ball. I recognize the trainwreck.

[jmkupka]

I think Jimmy messed up the runner's descriptors twice. This is what I have:

Runner from 3b out at the plate. 1 out.
The runner (between bases) gives up and heads to the dugout. I think.
B/R, on 1B, sees this and heads for 2B. I think. 2 outs (passing a runner).
Runner from between the bases enters the dugout. I think. 3 outs (leaving the field).

Please tell me I'm wrong about this circus.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I think Jimmy messed up the runner's descriptors twice. This is what I have:

Runner from 3b out at the plate. 1 out.
The runner (between bases) gives up and heads to the dugout. I think.
B/R, on 1B, sees this and heads for 2B. I think. 2 outs (passing a runner).
Runner from between the bases enters the dugout. I think. 3 outs (leaving the field).

Please tell me I'm wrong about this circus.

I think you are wrong. This is why I much prefer the NCAA way of designating runners. Using their convention:

I think R3 (runner starting at third) was thrown out at home. Then, R1 got confused as she was between first and second, and passed the BR as she headed to the dugout on the first base side. Then, R1 turned around and decided to run to second base and made it safely. The BR, for whatever reason, then retreated into the dugout and was ruled out for abandoning the bases.

The question Little Jimmy asked: Does R1's passing of first base as she headed to the dugout result in the BR being ruled out for "passing" R1? Even though the BR did nothing wrong initially, should she be ruled out since she's now ahead of R1 on the base path?

I would say Yes, she should have been called out, even though she wasn't the one who physically passed R1. The rule on passing doesn't cut the trail runner any slack when the lead runner goes behind her while running in the opposite direction.

[jmkupka]

"When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in), R2 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R3 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play."

No way of knowing, Manny... I think the RED R2 was between the bases, and the GREEN R2 was on 1B (and should've been named R3). Then RED R2 became R3 and stepped into the dugout (should've stayed named R2).

Let Jimmy fix the names and start over...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

Working in the C ball world last weekend. This convoluted play happened.

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in), R2 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R3 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

The runner identifiers seem OK.

R1 started on 3rd, followed by a play at home.
R2 started on 1st, caused the confusion between 1st and 2nd, etc.
R3 was the BR, correctly renamed R3 when she attained 1st.

I don't believe R3 out for passing is the intent of the rule, but literally she ends up ahead of R2. That would make R3 out, if interpreted that way.
R1 obviously out, R2 safe at 2nd.

I don't see any 3 out play.

Also, I doubt it makes any difference how many S's are in the title or any other letters (always ignoring NCAA).

[jmkupka]

R2 goes from between the bases, all the way (but not into) the dugout, then all the way back to 2B, without a play being made on her. Then R3 goes into the dugout.

Is there a base coach anywhere nearby? madness.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

R1 started on 3rd, followed by a play at home.
R2 started on 1st, caused the confusion between 1st and 2nd, etc.
R3 was the BR, correctly renamed R3 when she attained 1st.

Sooooo, if the bases were loaded to start, and the BR attains first base, she becomes R4??

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Sooooo, if the bases were loaded to start, and the BR attains first base, she becomes R4??

Well, that would be correct for NCAA, right (the runner that started on 4)?

Actually, Cecil, I'm not sure it is correct to re-designate a player during the play description (whichever nomenclature you start with).

One thing I do not like, though, is the mixing of nomenclature.

I say use the softball designation (same for all codes, except NCAA --- which, BTW, is true for a lot of things about softball, not just nomenclature...) on this board. Don't make it a religious issue, just avoid confusion by all using the same designation system.

Over on the BB board, by all means say "R3", but here, say "R1 on 3B". Just my humble suggestion. (OK, maybe not so humble... )

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Well, that would be correct for NCAA, right (the runner that started on 4)?

I know you were being tongue-in-cheek, but No, not really. The CCA Manual refers to her simply as "the runner". In fact, there is no reference in the CCA to a BR; she is "the runner" the moment she hits the ball fairly.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Actually, Cecil, I'm not sure it is correct to re-designate a player during the play description (whichever nomenclature you start with).

There are some members who will correct us for referring for a player who has attained 1st as a BR.

Originally Posted by Dakota

One thing I do not like, though, is the mixing of nomenclature.

I say use the softball designation (same for all codes, except NCAA --- which, BTW, is true for a lot of things about softball, not just nomenclature...) on this board. Don't make it a religious issue, just avoid confusion by all using the same designation system.

Yep, ditto, +1, agree, correct, gotcha, ...

--------------------------------
BUT, let's stay on topic.

[Little Jimmy]

jmkupka was right. I misstated the specifics. I looked over the post numerous times to make sure I got it right before I sent it out. But I missed it. Below is the correct info in red. My fault.

Working in the C ball world last weekend. This convoluted play happened.

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in) R3 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R2 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in) R3 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R2 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

Different story, but still the same basic question of whether R2 passing going backward counts as R3 "passing" a preceding runner.
Same answer:
"I don't believe R3 out for passing is the intent of the rule, but literally she ends up ahead of R2. That would make R3 out, if interpreted that way. "

Although now, R2 is out, R3 would be at 2nd if the passing rule does not apply.