Passing a preceding runner

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

R1 started on 3rd, followed by a play at home.
R2 started on 1st, caused the confusion between 1st and 2nd, etc.
R3 was the BR, correctly renamed R3 when she attained 1st.

Sooooo, if the bases were loaded to start, and the BR attains first base, she becomes R4??

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Sooooo, if the bases were loaded to start, and the BR attains first base, she becomes R4??

Well, that would be correct for NCAA, right (the runner that started on 4)?

Actually, Cecil, I'm not sure it is correct to re-designate a player during the play description (whichever nomenclature you start with).

One thing I do not like, though, is the mixing of nomenclature.

I say use the softball designation (same for all codes, except NCAA --- which, BTW, is true for a lot of things about softball, not just nomenclature...) on this board. Don't make it a religious issue, just avoid confusion by all using the same designation system.

Over on the BB board, by all means say "R3", but here, say "R1 on 3B". Just my humble suggestion. (OK, maybe not so humble... )

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Well, that would be correct for NCAA, right (the runner that started on 4)?

I know you were being tongue-in-cheek, but No, not really. The CCA Manual refers to her simply as "the runner". In fact, there is no reference in the CCA to a BR; she is "the runner" the moment she hits the ball fairly.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Actually, Cecil, I'm not sure it is correct to re-designate a player during the play description (whichever nomenclature you start with).

There are some members who will correct us for referring for a player who has attained 1st as a BR.

Originally Posted by Dakota

One thing I do not like, though, is the mixing of nomenclature.

I say use the softball designation (same for all codes, except NCAA --- which, BTW, is true for a lot of things about softball, not just nomenclature...) on this board. Don't make it a religious issue, just avoid confusion by all using the same designation system.

Yep, ditto, +1, agree, correct, gotcha, ...

--------------------------------
BUT, let's stay on topic.

[Little Jimmy]

jmkupka was right. I misstated the specifics. I looked over the post numerous times to make sure I got it right before I sent it out. But I missed it. Below is the correct info in red. My fault.

Working in the C ball world last weekend. This convoluted play happened.

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in) R3 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R2 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in) R3 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R2 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

Different story, but still the same basic question of whether R2 passing going backward counts as R3 "passing" a preceding runner.
Same answer:
"I don't believe R3 out for passing is the intent of the rule, but literally she ends up ahead of R2. That would make R3 out, if interpreted that way. "

Although now, R2 is out, R3 would be at 2nd if the passing rule does not apply.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

jmkupka was right. I misstated the specifics. I looked over the post numerous times to make sure I got it right before I sent it out. But I missed it. Below is the correct info in red. My fault.

Working in the C ball world last weekend. This convoluted play happened.

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in) R3 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R2 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

This is why I hate the softball rule that requires a runner to go all the way into DBT in order to rule him/her out for abandonment. There's no doubt that your R2 had no intention of properly running the bases, so she should have been ruled out when it was clear she had given up and was heading for the dugout. Waiting until she stepped foot into the dugout is a joke, in my mind.

But given the way the rules read, I still feel that the runner at first base (I still don't believe it's proper to designate her as R3) must be ruled out the moment R2 passes her in the opposite direction. While that is not the intent of the runner passing another runner rule, you have a situation where the trail runner is ahead of the lead runner, and I don't think that can be ignored. It would be no different than had a batter hit a line drive to the outfield, the ball short-hops into a fielder's glove out there, a runner who started at first base mistakenly believes the ball was caught, she heads back to first base, and in so doing, she passes the batter-turned-runner who rounds first base. You would have to rule this batter-turned-runner out in that case, wouldn't you?

I do have a question about your play that nobody has picked up on. You said the pitcher threw the ball toward second, but nobody ever made a play as R2 was kinda confused between first and second. And then as R2 decided the ball was caught and was heading toward and was just about in the dugout, the runner at first took off for second without a play. Where was the ball located at that time? Was someone at second base still holding it, or did she toss it back to the pitcher in the circle? If it's the latter, you may have had a LBR violation. So she may have been "out" twice in this scenario.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I do have a question about your play that nobody has picked up on. You said the pitcher threw the ball toward second, but nobody ever made a play as R2 was kinda confused between first and second. And then as R2 decided the ball was caught and was heading toward and was just about in the dugout, the runner at first took off for second without a play. Where was the ball located at that time? Was someone at second base still holding it, or did she toss it back to the pitcher in the circle? If it's the latter, you may have had a LBR violation. So she may have been "out" twice in this scenario.

See my tangent topic.

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by Manny A

...batter-turned-runner...

And this is why she is designated as R3.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

jmkupka was right. I misstated the specifics. I looked over the post numerous times to make sure I got it right before I sent it out. But I missed it. Below is the correct info in red. My fault.

Working in the C ball world last weekend. This convoluted play happened.

I am in C slot. Runners at 1st and 3rd. No outs. B1 hits sky high ball toward pitcher. It looks like she catches the ball, but then drops it. Plate ump signals fair ball. Correct call. R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd. But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. Play at plate. R1 is out.

Pitcher now throws toward 2nd (with fielder off the bag). R2 hasn't made it all the way to 2nd yet. R2 must think that there was a catch because she seems confused. She goes back and forth in between bases (touching neither one) with no one tagging her. Meanwhile R3 has attained 1st and is standing on it. R2 then must have decided a catch has been made so she heads toward the 1st base dugout, passing in front of R3 . When R2 gets close to dead ball territory (but not in) R3 breaks for 2nd and makes it with no play made on her. Now R2 decides to step into the dugout. I call her out for leaving the field of play.

So...was R3 out for passing a preceding runner even though she was standing on 1st and R2 passed her going to the dugout? I honestly was so confused by the whole situation that I did not call R3 out. And I think I was wrong. What say you?

The clarification helps me alot.

I was having a hard time justifying an out for passing R2 if B/R (R3) was still standing on first base. However, once BR/R3 takes off for second, now I can call the out as both players are by definition "running the bases".

The out on R3 for passing still keeps the ball live, so once R2, who is still an active runner, enters the dugout, she is out. I can see 3 outs on this play.