Pretend there was a batter in the 10-hole. When do you consider him becoming the batter? I'd say it was after B9 gets to 1B, and I think most would agree. You can't call B10 out until he's actually up to bat.

Think of it another way. B10 is late arriving, perhaps approaching the field. If B9 hits first before B10 gets in the dugout, you're calling B10 out. You certainly wouldn't call B10 out immediately after calling Ball Four, would you?

OK, I'm just saying that there is no rule that says when a player becomes the batter and subsequently I should be allowed to announce the next batter out, inning over, during the dead ball.

I'm sorry, but I believe you reasoning borders on the absurd. If runners are supposed to be advancing and you are looking for another batter, you are not doing your job as an umpire.

A dead-ball appeal is permitted and the umpire is instructed to not consider such an appeal until the play and all running assignments have been completed. Therefore, if the defense must wait, I would think the next batter must also wait as the umpire does not have the right to deprive any team from making a permissible and legal appeal.

AFA doing whatever you please during a dead-ball period, a fly ball tipped over the fence in fair territory is a dead-ball period, so are you going to call for the next batter that you know isn't going to be there while the player is still running the bases? Why not, is that not the same as what you are inferring here?

For a minute there Mike I thought you were talking
about the Association I call the most games for.
AFA {American Fastpitch Association} http://www.spao.de/pict/smilies/ani_smiles.gif
But then I knew you would not do that.

glen

I think it poses an interesting question. When do you call that missing batter out?

Example: The 9 hitter, hits a ball into the gap for a triple but misses second base. 10th hitter is an out, but the defense wants to appeal the runner missing second base. Which do you do first? Do you handle the appeal and start the next inning with an out, or do you call the batter out and make the miss of second a fourth out appeal?

Normally, the defense would have time to make that appeal while they are waiting for the next batter to approach the plate and get ready to hit, waiting for the umpire to get back to the plate and such, but if there is no next hitter then is the umpire supposed to wait a certain amount of time to declare that batter out?

Is there any procedure for that in the book?

[Edited by gsf23 on Oct 3rd, 2003 at 09:25 AM]

I don't understand this "rush to out" reasoning.

You always allow all playing action to complete before the next at bat starts. If the defense saw the missed base, they will be calling for the appeal ASAP. The umpire (IMO) should rule on this appeal before turning his attention to the next batter due up.

If the defense dilly-dallies with the appeal, and the umpire calls for the next batter (explicitly or implicitly), then he can rule the absent batter out.

Side question: can the appeal still be honored even after the absent batter has been declared out? I'd say so since no pitch was thrown.

As to the inning-ending out situation (e.g. BR enters the dugout before touching 1st). The rule book says the new half inning begins immediately upon the 3rd out of the previous inning. Once the 3rd out is recorded, the team is immediately on defense, so none of their batters are due up until their next offensive half. Therefore, the absent batter's out is by rule the first out of the team's next offensive half inning.

That's how I see it, anyway.

This whole topic has been an interesting discussion on a situation that should very rarely come up. I would disagree here, Tom. If the out is for a missing batter in the lineup, no pitch would ever be thrown!

If this scenario presented itself, I would wait for the play to finish, pause for a moment to see if the defense was going to appeal, then declare the missing batter out. Once the missing batter is declared out, I would not honor the appeal.

1) It makes no difference whether it is corec or single gender.
2) One help if you need one is that the batter can not be declared out for missing the 10 second limit until 10 seconds after the umpire calls for a batter.

I understand your reasoning, and am obviously not dogmatic about my answer, since I posed the question in the first place.

However, since an automatic out for playing shorthanded is not one of the conditions mentioned in 8-7F-I EFFECT.1, I wonder how it would hold up under protest?

How about other conditions where the batter is declared out without a pitch being thrown? E.g. entering the batter's box with an altered or illegal bat? Are no appeals honored after that, either? If so, aren't you penalizing the defense for an infraction by the offense?

Speaking ASA

Do not forget a "fourth-out appeal" is permitted to negate a run, therefore, an umpire should honor an appeal after the 3rd out as long as all the infielders have not entered foul territory.

Also, ASA allows for a continuous play option on the final out of the inning if more than two offensive players are retired when the play included the 3rd out.

And if the batter plays 1st and has a team mate throw her her glove from the dugout what do you have? At some point you have to indicate that she has had her opportunity to touch 1st and call the next batter which is an out or do you ask the "defense" do you have something to say before I call the next batter? It all boils down to when do you have the next batter?

If she touches 1B, nothing, she's safe. There is no rule prohibiting this. If she doesn't touch the base, you hesitate to see if there is any reaction from the defense. If there is, you allow it. If not, you call for the next batter and declare the out.