I'm blue now, but this occurred when I was just a player.

2 outs, I'm pitching. Opposing team has 9 players in a coed game, and I'm pitching to player number 9 - the next batter is the automatic out.

I throw 4 straight balls. (Not necessarily an intentional walk, but I certainly didn't give her anything to hit solidly - I'd actually rather gotten her out normally, and started the next inning with an out). Her coach tells her the inning is over, and she heads for the dugout. I ask my catcher for the ball and wait. When she hits the dugout (my team is already starting to leave the field, but I don't believe anyone was in the dugout yet, if it matters), I ask for the ball and toss it to my 1B and tell her to step on the base, appealing the batter never reaching 1B.

Umpire (correctly, I believe) rules her out - 3 outs. And I get to start the next inning with the auto-out afterall.

2 questions - was the umpire correct? Was this bad sportsmanship on my part?

I've always considered myself a good sport - both when winning and losing, but will do anything legal to win a game. I don't think this was bad sportsmanship --- but the other team disagreed very vocally. Just curious to hear your opinions.

I have never played or umped coed, so I'm not familiar with the rules. However, from your description of the events, I'll give my opinion. The automatic doesn't occur until the batter takes 1st on the walk, so it's probably a correct call. As a ballplayer, I would consider this bad sportsmanship. Knowing you have an out coming up, is no excuse for not pitching to someone.
I was going to go on and on, but I'll stop right here. My opinion is it's bad sportsmanship, regardless of which team I was on.

Speaking ASA

The ruling is correct, and it doesn't make any difference if anyone from your team was in the dugout as long as any infielder (including the pitcher) had not left fair territory, the appeal is legal.

As far as sportsmanship, getting an out is part of the game regardless of the opponent's gender.

It's unbelieveable how many AAs just continue to run when they know the automatic out is going to be the next batter. When they are put out, I just stand there and shake my head. Of course, I don't mind starting their next half-inning with an out :)

I don't know why the other team would complain about anything, but their ignorance.

Rules are there for a reason and just because you take the time to know the rules and they do not does not make for a bad sportsman, it makes for a knowledgeable one IMHO.

Question for my edification....
 

First of all, I am assuming that the original play happened in a SP game. I have not done SP for a long time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ball dead in Co-ed once it crosses the plate? If this is so, you have a player entering the dugout during a dead ball. Why is that player subject to appeal? Isn't this along the same lines as the player hit by the pitch not touching first as was discussed in another post?

Somebody set me straight.

I think it is ... but in the other post, the girl HBP is out if she doesn't accept her award (unless she's unable to continue, of course).

The other difference is that they were not replacing her at first (like with a CR), and there was no reason she could not accept her award of 1B.

Re: Question for my edification....
 

This player abandoned their effort to advance to 1B and left the field of play. What do you suggest the umpire and defense do, just stand there and watch the other team come out onto the field? The defense cannot leave the field of play or they lose their right to protest.

To me, this is an easy one.

Yeah Lady, you didn't hit, got a walk and to earn that walk, you must go and touch 1st. Give me a break! AA players, AA coaches, and you wonder why I gave up SP.

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/bluegrab.gif

Just to clear up my earlier post. I consider it bad sportsmanship to elect not to pitch to the batter. After she receives ball four, shame on her if she doesn't go to the bag. The other team should know the rules also. But you should have pitched to her.

I didn't exactly walk her intentionally. Like I said in the first post, I'd have preferred getting her out normally and starting the next inning with the auto-out. And this was the nine-hole hitter, so it wasn't like I was afraid of her.

On the other hand, knowing that I had an out coming, I didn't throw perfect pitches either. I was trying to get her to pop one up, but she didn't bite. I figured that if (IF!) she knew she HAD to try to hit it, she'd expand the zone for me --- she just didn't.

The "bad sportsmanship" yelling was for grabbing the easy out for her not advancing to first. They didn't like that at all.

Every year I (reluctantly) work a few co-ed business league games, and sometimes I see play that, though within the rules of the game, is to me unsportsmanlike.

The male players range from men who play in some of the lower-level township leagues to men in their seventies to men who last played ball in LL. The women range from good "gym class" players to purely picnic level. Many of the players are obviously simply "warm bodies" out for fun or filling in slots. A few have a little talent, but the overall quality is very low.

But then there are the heroes who think that games between teams made up of such players actually prove something.

To me, when a guy who plays in a couple of men's leagues takes advantage of an inexperienced woman who is standing in front of 2B without the ball, slides in hard but legally, and trips her up so he can take off for 3B when the ball gets away, that's unsportsmanlike.

When an old man comes to bat and the coach wants time out so he can bring the outfield way in and place everybody to best advantage, that's unsportsmanlike.

When the runners have stopped with the ball in the infield, and a guy takes off for home on the throw to the pitcher because he knows the woman they hid behind the plate won't be able to make the play at home, that's unsportsmanlike.

In the situation described at the beginning of this thread, I would not have appealed the BR who did not go to 1B. I would not do "anything legal" to win in a game like that. I wouldn't hit back up the middle if I thought the pitcher might not be good enough to protect himself. I wouldn't tag some woman who stepped off the base thinking time out had been called. Maybe it's because it so disgusted me, when my son played LL, to see managers pulling every trick they could think of to gain an advantage, like using a loophole in the league rule to get around the last batter in the lineup by having the pitcher hit him with a pitch. Why? So they could go home and write in their little book that they coached their team to another victory?

Unfortunately, greymule, it is not against the rules to play aggressively in a rec game.

While much of the behavior you describe is lacking in class and in the layman's definition of sportsmanship, I see nothing that an umpire can do about them, with the possible exception of the hard slide, since intentionally trying to take out a player is illegal and is a judgment call. HTBT, of course.

Humiliating opposing players by making a show of defensive positioning ... maybe the "disparaging remarks ... or other acts" part of Rule 10-9A could be stretched to cover, I don't know - I guess it would depend upon how big a show it was.

I don't put your examples in the same category as mbcrowder's original situation. While it could be true that his game was a glorified picnic game, there are some fairly serious (as such things go) co-rec leagues around here, and in those leagues just giving the "girl" the benefit of being ignorant of the rules is insulting. Knowing the rules is not the same as being an "A" player playing down to beat up on less athletic teams / players. Everyone can know the rules.

[Edited by Dakota on Oct 1st, 2003 at 05:38 PM]

Assuming slow pitch. Is it legal? Perhaps but if I was behind the plate you'd be getting a 4th out dead ball appeal as the moment ball four was called she ceased being a batter and the short hand rule says that an out occurs when the vacant spot is reached. As to the sportsmanship, nobody says you have to shake hands either.

Speaking ASA

Nope, that doesn't work. It would take less than three seconds to lose that protest.

I can see it now. Bottom of the 7th, two outs and the home team down by a run and the number 9 player in the batting order which has the 10th spot vacant. A shot to the fence looks like an inside the park home run to tie the game, BUT NO! Since the 9th batter has completed their turn at bat, the out is declared for the vacant spot as the #9 player is rounding 2nd. Game over!

An umpire may not entertain an appeal during a dead ball period until all running assignments have obviously come to a conclusion. This means that if you cannot rule on a play in progress, you certainly cannot rule on the next batter due up.

Mike, I can't find in the rule book anything that says when a player becomes the batter. Why can't I during a dead ball call for the batter, finding that there is no batter then call the automatic out? I'm not preventing anyone from completing there running duties nor preventing an appeal. Let's say I call the third out at 3rd after a run crosses the plate and the batter runner missed 1st. I'm not stopping the runner from retagging nor am I stopping the defense from appealing for the fourth out and preventing the run from scoring. In the example that you gave will there be another batter? No, so you can announce the 3rd out and let everyone finish their respective jobs and move on. In fast pitch it would be different because it's a live ball and people could be stealing but in slow pitch it's a dead ball appeal.

Pretend there was a batter in the 10-hole. When do you consider him becoming the batter? I'd say it was after B9 gets to 1B, and I think most would agree. You can't call B10 out until he's actually up to bat.

Think of it another way. B10 is late arriving, perhaps approaching the field. If B9 hits first before B10 gets in the dugout, you're calling B10 out. You certainly wouldn't call B10 out immediately after calling Ball Four, would you?

OK, I'm just saying that there is no rule that says when a player becomes the batter and subsequently I should be allowed to announce the next batter out, inning over, during the dead ball.

I'm sorry, but I believe you reasoning borders on the absurd. If runners are supposed to be advancing and you are looking for another batter, you are not doing your job as an umpire.

A dead-ball appeal is permitted and the umpire is instructed to not consider such an appeal until the play and all running assignments have been completed. Therefore, if the defense must wait, I would think the next batter must also wait as the umpire does not have the right to deprive any team from making a permissible and legal appeal.

AFA doing whatever you please during a dead-ball period, a fly ball tipped over the fence in fair territory is a dead-ball period, so are you going to call for the next batter that you know isn't going to be there while the player is still running the bases? Why not, is that not the same as what you are inferring here?

For a minute there Mike I thought you were talking
about the Association I call the most games for.
AFA {American Fastpitch Association} http://www.spao.de/pict/smilies/ani_smiles.gif
But then I knew you would not do that.

glen

I think it poses an interesting question. When do you call that missing batter out?

Example: The 9 hitter, hits a ball into the gap for a triple but misses second base. 10th hitter is an out, but the defense wants to appeal the runner missing second base. Which do you do first? Do you handle the appeal and start the next inning with an out, or do you call the batter out and make the miss of second a fourth out appeal?

Normally, the defense would have time to make that appeal while they are waiting for the next batter to approach the plate and get ready to hit, waiting for the umpire to get back to the plate and such, but if there is no next hitter then is the umpire supposed to wait a certain amount of time to declare that batter out?

Is there any procedure for that in the book?

[Edited by gsf23 on Oct 3rd, 2003 at 09:25 AM]

I don't understand this "rush to out" reasoning.

You always allow all playing action to complete before the next at bat starts. If the defense saw the missed base, they will be calling for the appeal ASAP. The umpire (IMO) should rule on this appeal before turning his attention to the next batter due up.

If the defense dilly-dallies with the appeal, and the umpire calls for the next batter (explicitly or implicitly), then he can rule the absent batter out.

Side question: can the appeal still be honored even after the absent batter has been declared out? I'd say so since no pitch was thrown.

As to the inning-ending out situation (e.g. BR enters the dugout before touching 1st). The rule book says the new half inning begins immediately upon the 3rd out of the previous inning. Once the 3rd out is recorded, the team is immediately on defense, so none of their batters are due up until their next offensive half. Therefore, the absent batter's out is by rule the first out of the team's next offensive half inning.

That's how I see it, anyway.

This whole topic has been an interesting discussion on a situation that should very rarely come up. I would disagree here, Tom. If the out is for a missing batter in the lineup, no pitch would ever be thrown!

If this scenario presented itself, I would wait for the play to finish, pause for a moment to see if the defense was going to appeal, then declare the missing batter out. Once the missing batter is declared out, I would not honor the appeal.

1) It makes no difference whether it is corec or single gender.
2) One help if you need one is that the batter can not be declared out for missing the 10 second limit until 10 seconds after the umpire calls for a batter.

I understand your reasoning, and am obviously not dogmatic about my answer, since I posed the question in the first place.

However, since an automatic out for playing shorthanded is not one of the conditions mentioned in 8-7F-I EFFECT.1, I wonder how it would hold up under protest?

How about other conditions where the batter is declared out without a pitch being thrown? E.g. entering the batter's box with an altered or illegal bat? Are no appeals honored after that, either? If so, aren't you penalizing the defense for an infraction by the offense?

Speaking ASA

Do not forget a "fourth-out appeal" is permitted to negate a run, therefore, an umpire should honor an appeal after the 3rd out as long as all the infielders have not entered foul territory.

Also, ASA allows for a continuous play option on the final out of the inning if more than two offensive players are retired when the play included the 3rd out.

And if the batter plays 1st and has a team mate throw her her glove from the dugout what do you have? At some point you have to indicate that she has had her opportunity to touch 1st and call the next batter which is an out or do you ask the "defense" do you have something to say before I call the next batter? It all boils down to when do you have the next batter?

If she touches 1B, nothing, she's safe. There is no rule prohibiting this. If she doesn't touch the base, you hesitate to see if there is any reaction from the defense. If there is, you allow it. If not, you call for the next batter and declare the out.