NFHS--Overrunning first--different question

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If they say nothing and the fielder just nonchalantly tags her, you shouldn't rule her out.

Why? She was tagged during a live ball while off the base. She wasn't entitled to overrun protection because she went toward second. You wouldn't ignore the tag if she ran halfway to second would you?

[BretMan]

I'd have to disagree, Manny.

If the umpire judges that the runner did indeed make a move toward second base, then any tag is sufficient- be it nonchalant or not! No further action or verbal statements required.

I always did think it was odd that this play got lumped in with "appeals", but it did. Another oddity about this appeal: Unlike other appeals it MUST be a live ball appeal.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by youngump

Why? She was tagged during a live ball while off the base. She wasn't entitled to overrun protection because she went toward second. You wouldn't ignore the tag if she ran halfway to second would you?

Hey, I'm just guessing here because softball (and it's that way in every rule set I've seen) calls this an appeal. And it specifically deals with a runner attempting to advance to second after making a turn at first base, so I'm thinking of the batter-runner who takes a step to second and then thinks better about it. Your halfway-to-second situation is much different.

I've had trouble with this whole notion that the powers-that-be in NCAA, USA Softball, NFHS, USSSA, and maybe others that I don't work call this an appealable situation. My response was merely an assumption as to why. If it truly is NOT an appeal, then take it out of the damn books!

[AtlUmpSteve]

The best explanation I have been given to this question came from the Deputy National Director of Umpire HP. He said (at that time, probably 20 or more years ago) it was listed as an appeal because the player is asking for a ruling if the runner is protected as simply overrunning first base, or if in jeopardy because the umpire judges a move toward second that removes that protection.

And, like the other items listed as an appeal, if they don't ask, we don't tell them or indicate in any way that the runner is in jeopardy. We wouldn't rule on the runner being routinely tagged on a return to first base after missing the base, unless appealed, right? In the same way, we don't rule on this, either, unless appealed.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The best explanation I have been given to this question came from the Deputy National Director of Umpire HP. He said (at that time, probably 20 or more years ago) it was listed as an appeal because the player is asking for a ruling if the runner is protected as simply overrunning first base, or if in jeopardy because the umpire judges a move toward second that removes that protection.

And, like the other items listed as an appeal, if they don't ask, we don't tell them or indicate in any way that the runner is in jeopardy. We wouldn't rule on the runner being routinely tagged on a return to first base after missing the base, unless appealed, right? In the same way, we don't rule on this, either, unless appealed.

Okay, so I go back to my previous example where the BR overruns first base, turns back, takes a step toward second then thinks better of it, and nobody on defense sees this and says, "Tag her! She stepped toward second!" As she returns, F3 simply tags her and then throws the ball back to the pitcher. Are we supposed to rule her out or not? You make it sound like we don't do so.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Okay, so I go back to my previous example where the BR overruns first base, turns back, takes a step toward second then thinks better of it, and nobody on defense sees this and says, "Tag her! She stepped toward second!" As she returns, F3 simply tags her and then throws the ball back to the pitcher. Are we supposed to rule her out or not? You make it sound like we don't do so.

I would agree with no call, as long as it is listed as an appeal.
Even "tag her" is ambiguous as it is yelled on many overruns.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Okay, so I go back to my previous example where the BR overruns first base, turns back, takes a step toward second then thinks better of it, and nobody on defense sees this and says, "Tag her! She stepped toward second!" As she returns, F3 simply tags her and then throws the ball back to the pitcher. Are we supposed to rule her out or not? You make it sound like we don't do so.

The requirement of any live ball appeal is that the umpire understand that an appeal is being made. The old tome was that while there could be an accidental force out, there cannot be an accidental appeal. The runner that misses 2nd on the way to 3rd isn't out if the shortstop kicks 2nd on her way by with the ball, unless she communicates in some way she is making an appeal.

Unless it is apparent that this an appeal, not a routine to tag every returning runner, then no call should be made. When it is clear to EVERYONE that this is a runner in jeopardy between bases being played on (and when that exists, doesn't the runner make some evasive move??), rule on the tag; if there is a question, it is an appeal that must be made. And, without communication, do you know WHAT they are appealing? You call her out for "attempting second" while they are appealing she missed the base; how does that look in your mind?

If they ARE actually making an appeal, you can be sure someone will say something when you don't rule either way. (Or you can spend the rest of time calling every runner returning "safe" when they tag every returning runner hoping to get lucky.)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The requirement of any live ball appeal is that the umpire understand that an appeal is being made. The old tome was that while there could be an accidental force out, there cannot be an accidental appeal. The runner that misses 2nd on the way to 3rd isn't out if the shortstop kicks 2nd on her way by with the ball, unless she communicates in some way she is making an appeal.

Unless it is apparent that this an appeal, not a routine to tag every returning runner, then no call should be made. When it is clear to EVERYONE that this is a runner in jeopardy between bases being played on (and when that exists, doesn't the runner make some evasive move??), rule on the tag; if there is a question, it is an appeal that must be made. And, without communication, do you know WHAT they are appealing? You call her out for "attempting second" while they are appealing she missed the base; how does that look in your mind?

If they ARE actually making an appeal, you can be sure someone will say something when you don't rule either way. (Or you can spend the rest of time calling every runner returning "safe" when they tag every returning runner hoping to get lucky.)

So, I don't think the rules support this. Yes the weird appeal language muddies this up. But the rules are fairly clear. The BR is out if touched with the ball after overrunning and making an attempt for second.

If you're going to draw this line, where does it turn from an appeal into a live ball tag? Two steps toward second, halfway to second, casually returning versus agressively?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Feel free to establish your own rationale and understanding of the meaning of "when properly appealed", as required in the rules. For me, I will trust HP, and the generations that he has taught; and he was clear and distinct that an appeal must be actually "appealed", not just any similar or related play when an appeal is available.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The best explanation I have been given to this question came from the Deputy National Director of Umpire HP. He said (at that time, probably 20 or more years ago) it was listed as an appeal because the player is asking for a ruling if the runner is protected as simply overrunning first base, or if in jeopardy because the umpire judges a move toward second that removes that protection.

And, like the other items listed as an appeal, if they don't ask, we don't tell them or indicate in any way that the runner is in jeopardy. We wouldn't rule on the runner being routinely tagged on a return to first base after missing the base, unless appealed, right? In the same way, we don't rule on this, either, unless appealed.

Well, with all due respect to HP, his interpretation isn't supported by the definition.

[Manny A]

Just to muddy the waters even more, here's what's in the NCAA rule book:

7.1 Appeals
7.1.1 An appeal is a play or rule violation on which the umpire does not
make a ruling until requested by a coach or player. The following may
be appealed:
7.1.1.1 Attempting to advance to second base after making the turn at or
overrunning first base. (See Rule 12.24.)
7.1.1.1.1 Must be a live-ball appeal.
7.1.1.1.2 Must be made before the batter-runner returns to first base.

And then this:

12.24 Overrunning or Oversliding Bases
.
.
.
12.24.2 If the batter-runner feints or makes an attempt to advance to second, she may be tagged out (while she is off base) by a defensive player with the ball.
EFFECT—See Rule 7.1.1.1.

So the book recognizes under 12.24.2 that a BR who feints or makes an attempt to advance to second may be tagged out. Reading that alone makes you believe an appeal is not necessary. But then the Effect refers us back to 7.1.1.1 that says it must be a live-ball appeal.

This concept just needs to go away in softball. There's nothing like it in baseball anywhere. Over "there", it is accepted that a BR who attempts or feints an attempt toward second after overrunning first may be simply tagged without any question.

[BretMan]

I like outs...

I'd consider the tag to be an unmistakable/obvious appeal!

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I like outs...

I'd consider the tag to be an unmistakable/obvious appeal!

I like outs as well, Bret!

To be honest, this is nothing more than an academic discussion. To this day, I can safely say I've never seen it play out where a BR overruns first base, makes an attempt or feint to second, nobody on defense sees her do it, and then as she saunters back to first base, the fielder with the ball lays a nonchalant tag on her just because it's something she does to every BR who comes back to the bag.

But in the event that it does, I don't want to be the umpire who rules the BR out, and then the savvy head coach argues, "Hey Blue, where was the appeal on that?!"

Then again, the likelihood that there's a head coach out there who really knows what the rule requires is even slimmer than the play happening in the first place!