ASA - 1B Coach runs out on field during live ball to argue a call at 2B

[teebob21]

Championship play. The situation is not really relevant, but for context it was a banger non-routine force play at 2B. Three umpire system, I am U3 making a call at 2B on an infield ground ball (this is NOT the same play with the INT that I posted earlier). The throw from F6 was high and F4 jumped off the bag to make the catch, but landed with her foot on the base before the runner arrived. It wasn't all that close, but enough to sell it with a point, verbalize "Yes!! It's on!", pause and punch. The BR reached first safely and the return throw from F4 to F1 was overthrown and the ball was loose as the coach met me 45 feet down the 1B-2B line.

For additional context, it was Day 3 of a National and this assistant coach had already been ejected from games on Days 1 and 2. (Edit to add: Not ejected by me.)

In my shoes, how would you have reacted/handled this situation?

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Championship play. The situation is not really relevant, but for context it was a banger non-routine force play at 2B. Three umpire system, I am U3 making a call at 2B on an infield ground ball (this is NOT the same play with the INT that I posted earlier). The throw from F6 was high and F4 jumped off the bag to make the catch, but landed with her foot on the base before the runner arrived. It wasn't all that close, but enough to sell it with a point, verbalize "Yes!! It's on!", pause and punch. The BR reached first safely and the return throw from F4 to F1 was overthrown and the ball was loose as the coach met me 45 feet down the 1B-2B line.

For additional context, it was Day 3 of a National and this assistant coach had already been ejected from games on Days 1 and 2. (Edit to add: Not ejected by me.)

In my shoes, how would you have reacted/handled this situation?

It would have been a Trifecta as he would be Ejected 3 day in a row

[CecilOne]

Prior games not relevant.

Tempting to see if his runners advanced on the loose ball and then call time before they got there.

[jmkupka]

I'd be sorely tempted to call dead ball as he approached across the field, BR back to 1B (if she hadn't reached 2B).
Then EJ.

Do the rules permit this?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Prior games not relevant.

Tempting to see if his runners advanced on the loose ball and then call time before they got there.

To me, prior games may be relevant. If I knew this hair-trigger guy had been tossed the previous 2 days, I'd be just as quick with an ejection.

If I didn't know, I may have opted to cut him some slack telling him he couldn't be where he was. He was already on the field, i.e. didn't come charging out from a dugout, but should have remained in the vicinity of the coaches' box.

If a coach gets tossed, are there sanctions? A game suspension? Tossed twice, out for the balance of the tournament? Are these decisions that would be made by the UIC and/or TD?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Championship play. The situation is not really relevant, but for context it was a banger non-routine force play at 2B. Three umpire system, I am U3 making a call at 2B on an infield ground ball (this is NOT the same play with the INT that I posted earlier). The throw from F6 was high and F4 jumped off the bag to make the catch, but landed with her foot on the base before the runner arrived. It wasn't all that close, but enough to sell it with a point, verbalize "Yes!! It's on!", pause and punch. The BR reached first safely and the return throw from F4 to F1 was overthrown and the ball was loose as the coach met me 45 feet down the 1B-2B line.

For additional context, it was Day 3 of a National and this assistant coach had already been ejected from games on Days 1 and 2. (Edit to add: Not ejected by me.)

In my shoes, how would you have reacted/handled this situation?

Well, I wouldn't have been on the baseline with a live ball and active runner

The moment any umpire sees him on the field, kill the play, all runners return to last base at the time of play being suspended and ask the coach what the hell he is doing in the middle of the field while the ball is still in play? No, that is not baiting, it is a valid question. Maybe he will be embarrassed that he didn't realize the ball was still live, but I wouldn't put too much money on that one.

Selection of words "Yes, it's on" may have been considered a challenge to the coach Or he may have thought you were referring to the runner, not the fielder.

Joking aside, I would listen to what he has to say, dismiss any contention with the call since you were right on top of it, turn and hustle into position for the next play. If he's there when you turn around.......well, you cannot say you didn't give him a chance to withdraw.

BTW, couldn't care less what happened in previous games, it should be completely irrelevant. Knowing how a particular coach or player has been behaving and then acting on it shouldn't happen with a good umpire. Do you want to be judged in game C based on a call you made in game A, especially if you kicked it? Just as the umpire needs to prove him/herself each game, so should the player or coach and that goes in both directions. Trust me, if the coach is that bad, he will earn the ejection for this game just as he did in the previous one.

[teebob21]

Interesting feedback...interesting in that it's pretty much what I expected. I did not auto-eject the coach, although in hindsight, I wish I would have. I knew this guy was a Grade-A butthead from the previous day, and I thought it would be prudent to give him exactly as much rope as he wanted to hang himself. You know, the whole "be approachable" and an 'utmost professional at all times' mantra. I wasn't letting his past behavior prejudice me, although from another view, maybe I did by letting him stay when any other coach probably would have been dumped.

The conversation:
Him, running: {unintelligible}
Me: [Giving a big, high one-handed stop sign while still watching the ball] NO, Coach! Wait until the ball's in the circle. It's live!
Him, still coming: {rabble rabble grumble grumble}
--Ball is possessed by F1...not quite into the circle, but no one's running. Close enough for me to pay attention to the coach as he's within a few feet of me. I see that neither partner has called Time.--
Me: Coach, you can't be out here. No one has called Time yet.
Him: I called time! (more words that I didn't really listen to)
Me: TIME! Coach, now the ball's in the circle. What can I do for you?
Him: {Bog-standard "How can you make that call?" coach complaint. I don't recall the actual words. He didn't think the fielder touched the bag before the runner.}
Me: No, sir, the out stands. The throw was high, as you said, but the fielder caught the ball and her left foot came down on the bag before the runner's left foot reached it. ( <-- I know for a fact that those were my actual words...this was the first time I've used such detail. Another umpire had talked about how specifying which foot was where can sometimes stop a coach in their tracks...provided the coach is willing to listen to what you have to say. This guy wasn't.)
Him: You gotta go for help!
Me, pointing to my partners' positions as I talk: Coach, my first-base partner is behind the play, and our plate umpire is 85 feet away. I'm right here on top of it, and I could see all the elements: the ball, the glove, the fielder on the bag, and the runner's foot. She's out.
Him: You're not going to go for help?
Me: No, sir.
Him: I can't believe you guys!
Me: Sorry, sir.
Him, walking away: All you umpires have been rubbish all week!
Me, giving another stop sign: PAT, KNOCK IT OFF!
Him: {hesitation and surprise that I know his first name} No....uh....YOU knock it off! {keeps walking away}

I posted this play for conversation here because the feedback I got after the game was a surprise to me. I thought I handled it well; kept the coach in the game and life went on. The feedback I got was that I looked animated and aggressive during the discussion (which is totally possible as I gave two stop signs and pointed while talking) and that I should have appeased him by going for help in order to defuse the situation (which I 100% disagree with as I had all the elements with 99.9%+ certainty).

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, I wouldn't have been on the baseline with a live ball and active runner

Har dee har har. You know what I meant.

[RKBUmp]

Ignoring previous ejections you may have been fine in giving him leeway up until his last 2 comments. Should have been dumped at that point.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Him: I can't believe you guys!
Me: Sorry, sir.
Him, walking away: All you umpires have been rubbish all week!
Me, giving another stop sign: PAT, KNOCK IT OFF!
Him: {hesitation and surprise that I know his first name} No....uh....YOU knock it off! {keeps walking away}

Him #1: Radar up.
Him #2: Very likely ejection.
Him #3: Absolute ejection every time - Particularly given the caps in "YOU."

Had a conversation once over look back violation:

Me: Coach, we are done.
Coach: NO WE ARE NOT.
Me: Yes, YOU are.

By the way, I too would have gone to partners for a courtesy "hey did I miss something? - No? I didn't think so." "Out stands."

[RKBUmp]

By the way, I too would have gone to partners for a courtesy

Unless coach has a specific question it is a waste of time to go to your part er just to appease a coach. All that does is have them coming out on the field on a fishing expedition on every close play they don't like. If you have all the elements of the play in front of you and have no question of anything missed do not go to your partners.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Ignoring previous ejections you may have been fine in giving him leeway up until his last 2 comments. Should have been dumped at that point.

I disagree, You could have ejected, but I would not have; and certainly would not use the word "should".

TeeBob, unless your wording (and it appears carefully stated) is off, I'm going to disagree with the need to 1) have the last word as he's walking away (yes, he commented, unless rubbish is a magic word to you, let him have that last word), 2) throw up a stop sign (as he's walking away?), and 3) use his name during the walk-away. If I'm using his name (and I do), it's to defuse a situation, not to extend it; and you practically invited him to respond to that.

Dumping earlier was an option; when you had not by the walk-away point, he needs to do something bigger to justify an ejection at that point (turning back and yelling, or using a profanity).

And, no, I'm not getting "help" to appease him on this judgment call.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Unless coach has a specific question it is a waste of time to go to your part er just to appease a coach. All that does is have them coming out on the field on a fishing expedition on every close play they don't like. If you have all the elements of the play in front of you and have no question of anything missed do not go to your partners.

^^^^This....

Coach, the fact that you disagree with my call is not a reason for me to go for help.


Interesting feedback....I have also gotten similar feedback when I used a stop sign with a coach. It goes back to my basketball officiating days when the stop sign was a good tool to use on a chirping coach when the ball was in play and your focus needed to be elsewhere. On the diamond, however, I can see where it would look aggressive, but in your case, I think some aggression was needed as the ball was still live.

I completely disagree with going for help only to appease him. Too many coaches today think we should go for help whenever they ask and too many umpires do it.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Interesting feedback...interesting in that it's pretty much what I expected. I did not auto-eject the coach, although in hindsight, I wish I would have. I knew this guy was a Grade-A butthead from the previous day, and I thought it would be prudent to give him exactly as much rope as he wanted to hang himself. You know, the whole "be approachable" and an 'utmost professional at all times' mantra. I wasn't letting his past behavior prejudice me, although from another view, maybe I did by letting him stay when any other coach probably would have been dumped.

The conversation:
Him, running: {unintelligible}
Me: [Giving a big, high one-handed stop sign while still watching the ball] NO, Coach! Wait until the ball's in the circle. It's live!
Him, still coming: {rabble rabble grumble grumble}
--Ball is possessed by F1...not quite into the circle, but no one's running. Close enough for me to pay attention to the coach as he's within a few feet of me. I see that neither partner has called Time.--
Me: Coach, you can't be out here. No one has called Time yet.
Him: I called time! (more words that I didn't really listen to)
Me: TIME! Coach, now the ball's in the circle. What can I do for you?
Him: {Bog-standard "How can you make that call?" coach complaint. I don't recall the actual words. He didn't think the fielder touched the bag before the runner.}
Me: No, sir, the out stands. The throw was high, as you said, but the fielder caught the ball and her left foot came down on the bag before the runner's left foot reached it. ( <-- I know for a fact that those were my actual words...this was the first time I've used such detail. Another umpire had talked about how specifying which foot was where can sometimes stop a coach in their tracks...provided the coach is willing to listen to what you have to say. This guy wasn't.)
Him: You gotta go for help!
Me, pointing to my partners' positions as I talk: Coach, my first-base partner is behind the play, and our plate umpire is 85 feet away. I'm right here on top of it, and I could see all the elements: the ball, the glove, the fielder on the bag, and the runner's foot. She's out.
Him: You're not going to go for help?
Me: No, sir.
Him: I can't believe you guys!
Me: Sorry, sir.
Him, walking away: All you umpires have been rubbish all week!
Me, giving another stop sign: PAT, KNOCK IT OFF!
Him: {hesitation and surprise that I know his first name} No....uh....YOU knock it off! {keeps walking away}

I posted this play for conversation here because the feedback I got after the game was a surprise to me. I thought I handled it well; kept the coach in the game and life went on. The feedback I got was that I looked animated and aggressive during the discussion (which is totally possible as I gave two stop signs and pointed while talking) and that I should have appeased him by going for help in order to defuse the situation (which I 100% disagree with as I had all the elements with 99.9%+ certainty).

Thoughts?



Har dee har har. You know what I meant.

I don't think I would have let him get to the point of the last two.

Let's see here. He said he called time during a live ball situation, which is considered an unsportsmanlike act IIRC. He, by running on the field did charge the umpire, another unsportsmanlike act. He came onto the field during a live ball situation, which is an unsportsmanlike act (and is one I generally won't punish if it is a stand alone situation).

Even if he gets this far, which isn't real likely, he is most definitely gets tossed upon his last two comments.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I disagree, You could have ejected, but I would not have; and certainly would not use the word "should".

TeeBob, unless your wording (and it appears carefully stated) is off, I'm going to disagree with the need to 1) have the last word as he's walking away (yes, he commented, unless rubbish is a magic word to you, let him have that last word), 2) throw up a stop sign (as he's walking away?), and 3) use his name during the walk-away. If I'm using his name (and I do), it's to defuse a situation, not to extend it; and you practically invited him to respond to that.

Dumping earlier was an option; when you had not by the walk-away point, he needs to do something bigger to justify an ejection at that point (turning back and yelling, or using a profanity).

And, no, I'm not getting "help" to appease him on this judgment call.

Steve, thanks for your input. I will try to apply it in the future. "Rubbish" isn't one of my magic words, but he'd already gotten dumped in other games for "BS" and "horrible", both of which are on my magic list. I think he was just working his way down his Totem Pole of Adjectives trying to find out which words he could use with us.

I like the IAWE process: ignore, acknowledge, warn, eject. I didn't feel like that parting shot should be ignored, as it was the same type of phrase he'd already used to end his games, and I'd already acknowledged his jab before he turned away. Could I have let it slide? Yes. Should I have? Probably. But at the moment when he said it, my gut reaction was to dump him then and there. He was walking away...the optics of the situation would have been bad. I chose to warn, a stern one at that. It was effective; I definitely got his attention and got the message across that he was toeing the line. The second stop sign was probably pure reflex, and something I will work on eliminating.

So, why didn't I eject for his final YOU comment? Because honestly, it was flat-out funny. I can't properly convey it on the forum, but it sounded like a 5th-grade playground comeback, said by a grown man. I had a hell of a time keeping a poker face out there after he said that. Maybe it's a bad habit to carry over into JO play, but it's something I picked up working men's FP. When an adult player or coach says something to make me laugh (or want to), I tend to let them live.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I posted this play for conversation here because the feedback I got after the game was a surprise to me. I thought I handled it well; kept the coach in the game and life went on.

Well, that isn't your job. It is the coach's job to keep himself in the game. Your job is to officiate the game.

The feedback I got was that I looked animated and aggressive during the discussion (which is totally possible as I gave two stop signs and pointed while talking) and that I should have appeased him by going for help in order to defuse the situation (which I 100% disagree with as I had all the elements with 99.9%+ certainty).

IMO, you are getting bad information. You are correct to not go for help just to appease a coach. If anything, you may have talked too much. As previously noted, let the coach have his say, no reason to engage him, he will talk himself out. The less you say, the sooner he will be done. Eventually, when he is done, he will shut up and wait for your response. Provide a concise response (No, coach. I had a clear view of the elements of the play. Let's play ball) and move on to your position.

Again, no reason to further engage him. Ever notice how stupid MLB umpires look when they start arguing with coaches? They get animated and loud and flush and all for absolutely nothing, but a lifetime on medicine to control his blood pressure. Have you ever seen an umpire lose an argument on the field? So why jeopardize one's life and career over it?

Of course, if the coach won't give up or just will not stop running at the mouth or crosses the line for you, just continue to do your job and remove him from the game.