ASA: Extra Players, a batting Flex, and a skipped DP hitter

[teebob21]

How would you fix this situation? ASA invitational.

Team A bats 10 under the ASA Extra Player rule, and wants to also use the DP/Flex. The Flex is listed 3rd in the lineup, and the DP is listed playing a defensive position, and is in the 7th spot in the order. The plate umpire incorrectly accepts this lineup. (I was the base umpire, but was not present at the pregame meeting because I was changing from having the plate in the previous game.)

In the 1st inning, the Flex bats and grounds out. In the 2nd inning, the DP does not bat, and pitches are thrown to the 8th batter. In the 3rd inning, the 10th batter is due up first to come to the plate. Team B, on defense with a 2-2 count, appeals that Batter #10 is batting out of order.

What do you rule at this point?

[CecilOne]

1) coach sent back to kindergarten
2) PU sent back to pre-school

3) #10 is not really batting out of order if #9 was the last out
4) Guessing the "FLEX" is not playing defense, meaning the coach reversed the terminology, reverse the FLEX and DP ids
5) All prior action stands as long as the listed "DP" did not bat, too late for penalties, although I hope to be corrected on that.

6) Correct the lineup card
3 slot now says DP
7 slot now says #8
8 slot now says #9
9 slot now says #10
10 slot now has the player originally listed as #7 ("DP", now FLEX)

7) Rule that we are woefully short if umpires

[youngump]

So one can't use a DP and an EP. Since they are using an EP, I'm assuming this is slow pitch and they couldn't use a DP. As such, everyone is required to bat. If they've got 11 people on the lineup then we had a legal lineup even if we didn't have a legal line up card specifying it. Any of the 10 can play defense and they all must bat. It's too late to do anything if someone was skipped because they didn't understand that. 9 batted last so 10 is the correct batter.


Now if it were fast pitch, then they can't use an EP. In that case, they have too many players on the lineup. Only 9 people should be batting. Fixing this is a mess. If I had to offer an opinion on the field, the 11th batter is not in the game. If she's been playing defense tell the coach to stop that. The first 10 are legal with the 3rd batter being relisted in the 10 spot. The 8th batter just batted so the 9th batter is due up (and is up) so we keep playing. The 11th batter is an eligible substitute. And now we have a legal lineup card.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Team A bats 10 under the ASA Extra Player rule, ?

I guess I ignored this, but the OP seems to only have 10 players. If so, the 3 slot and 7 slot could just be EP.

EP's are allowed in JO pool play, without or with a DP/FLEX. .

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I guess I ignored this, but the OP seems to only have 10 players. If so, the 3 slot and 7 slot could just be EP.

EP's are allowed in JO pool play, without or with a DP/FLEX. .

10 players plus subs. Irrelevant to the situation, but they had a few subs not in the lineup. EP's were allowed at this tournament.

Obviously, I know how we ruled; I'm curious to see what rules others would have used to extricate their partner from this.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by teebob21

10 players plus subs. Irrelevant to the situation, but they had a few subs not in the lineup. EP's were allowed at this tournament.

Obviously, I know how we ruled; I'm curious to see what rules others would have used to extricate their partner from this.

So they could bat as many as they wanted and they could also use the DP/Flex. (I'm hesistant to call that an EP since that's a different rule). In that case, I think you've got three choices. Either, go with what the coach wanted (swapping his DP and flex since he clearly misunderstood the terms) or go with what he gave you, making him use the DP as flex and vice versa, or worst of all make him use the 10 spot as the flex. The first seems better in a relaxed context and the second seems better in games that count.

[AtlUmpSteve]

My thoughts:

Don't see where you said how many players were listed in the lineup, but to have an EH/EP/AP plus DP and FLEX, there needs to be 11 starters listed. (USSSA/USAES allows up to 2 AP's plus DP/FLEX, so that lineup can have 12 starters listed.) Where there?

If 11 are listed, no matter what they list as positions, #11 is the FLEX, and does not bat. And so far has not, so there is not an illegal sub, there are simply defensive changes from the written lineup. And, whomever is listed as DP is the person tied to that FLEX (the one in position #11, not the one with FLEX written next to it.

If only 10 in that lineup, and the 10th player is not the FLEX, then I don't care what they intended, they have an EH/EP/AP and no DP or FLEX. That is the lineup that was accepted, regardless what they thought they were doing. All is good, no illegal subs, no one batting out of order.

Not championship play, move on. If championship play, get a new PU. Regardless, teach the PU what is the minimum necessary to accept a legal lineup to start a game.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

My thoughts:

[....snip....]

If only 10 in that lineup, and the 10th player is not the FLEX, then I don't care what they intended, they have an EH/EP/AP and no DP or FLEX. That is the lineup that was accepted, regardless what they thought they were doing. All is good, no illegal subs, no one batting out of order.

Not championship play, move on. If championship play, get a new PU. Regardless, teach the PU what is the minimum necessary to accept a legal lineup to start a game.

The highlighted portion above is what we did. My PU partner brain-farted at the pregame meeting and he owned it. I doubt he'll make that mistake again. I suggested that the names in the lineup were valid, but the positions were incorrect: a correctable mistake without penalty. 10 batters were listed to start the game. The missed batter was done and gone, nothing anyone can do about it. The (wrong) DP/Flex designations were eliminated, and we finished the game with 10 batting: 9 + 1 EP.

The coach needed a kindergarten lesson on DP/Flex, and thankfully got one from the UIC after the "problem". The funny part was that their scorekeeper knew the lineup rules, and was on "our side" during the fix.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

(the one in position #11, not the one with FLEX written next to it.

This seems reasonable enough but why does the list the flex last rule trump the rule about writing positions next to names. That is why go this way instead of saying that the identified flex was the flex but written in the wrong line?