Warm up area

[benbret]

NFHS Fast pitch Can a team's warm-up area legally be behind the bleachers out of the umpire's view. Rule number please if there is one.

[MNBlue]

Working on the test?

:-)

See 2-15

[Jake26]

Rule 2-15 doesn't say (as I read it) where a warm-up area can or cannot be. It does says that if it is "adjacent" and "within the view," then it is within the Confines of the Field. Being within the Confines allows the umpires to have jurisdiction (Rule 10-1-2), and instruct, for example, a catcher to wear a catcher's mask while warming up her pitcher.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by benbret

NFHS Fast pitch Can a team's warm-up area legally be behind the bleachers out of the umpire's view. Rule number please if there is one.

SECTION 15 CONFINES OF THE FIELD
The confines of the field includes the field of play, the designated dugout/bench area, and any enclosed or clearly marked area designated as a warm-up area that is adjacent to the field and within the view of the umpire(s).

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

SECTION 15 CONFINES OF THE FIELD
The confines of the field includes the field of play, the designated dugout/bench area, and any enclosed or clearly marked area designated as a warm-up area that is adjacent to the field and within the view of the umpire(s).

Which does not answer the deliberately uncovered question. Same as last year's test, I believe.

[teebob21]

This is a good example of a bad test question. The question is asking about the legality/illegality of an area. The confines of the field are defined, but there is no legal/illegal interpretation available.

The test writers probably wanted to ask if it was legal for players to use such a warm-up area. I was not able to find a rule requiring all players and team personnel to remain within the confines of the field for the entire game. If such a rule exists (and I wouldn't mind a citation if it does), is running to the bathroom illegal too?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by teebob21

This is a good example of a bad test question. The question is asking about the legality/illegality of an area. The confines of the field are defined, but there is no legal/illegal interpretation available.

The test writers probably wanted to ask if it was legal for players to use such a warm-up area. I was not able to find a rule requiring all players and team personnel to remain within the confines of the field for the entire game. If such a rule exists (and I wouldn't mind a citation if it does), is running to the bathroom illegal too?

I would go with 3-6-6, it does not state confines of the field, since that includes the field of play and anyone that is not a batter, runner(s), on-deck batter, coach bat/ball shagger or playing defense is allowed on the field of play.
ART. 6 . . . Only the batter, runner(s), on-deck batter, coaches in the coach's box, bat/ball shaggers or one of the nine players on defense (S.P. 10) are permitted to be outside the designated dugout/bench or designated warm-up areas. (3-5-7)

NOTE: Bench personnel are permitted to engage in throwing and running activities during the one minute designated for the pitcher to throw her five warm-up pitches at the beginning of each half inning.

Casebook even has a couple plays on it:

3.6.6 SITUATION A:

Team A has one of its players or team personnel in the bleachers behind home plate or in the bleachers along the third-base line.

RULING: All members, attendants and bench personnel shall remain in the dugout (bench) or designated warm-up area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in a coach's box, or a player on defense. The umpire shall issue a team warning to the coach involved and the next offender on that team shall be restricted to the dugout/bench area. Failure to comply shall result in the game being forfeited.



3.6.6 SITUATION B:

During a game, the visiting team's bench personnel are (a) sitting on the front edge of the dugout with their feet in live-ball territory or (b) standing or sitting outside the dugout or marked bench area.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach with any subsequent offender being restricted to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game.

[EsqUmp]

These rules are completely outdated. No one would ever prohibit a pitcher and catcher strolling a little away in order to warm up. But you wouldn't allow four "on-deck" batters, as they like to call themselves, swinging away behind the stands. They need to get some post 2000 AD language in the books.

[jTheUmp]

This question threw me for a loop also... I defaulted to "if the book doesn't say it's illegal, that means it's legal".

[Manny A]

You'll find your answer in NFHS Case Play 1.7.3 Situation B:

"While the game is in progress, the umpire notices that a non-adult is warming up the pitcher, but is not wearing an approved helmet and mask combination and throat protector (a) within the confines of the field, or (b) outside the confines of the field.

"RULING: In (a), the umpire shall warn the pitcher's head coach of the infraction and prohibit the pitcher from warming up with that individual until the non-adult secures the proper equipment. The next player not properly equipped will result in the player and the head coach being restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. In (b), rules prohibit team personnel from being outside the confines of the playing area or designated warm-up areas during a contest. The umpire shall warn the head coach of this infraction. The next offender is restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. The umpire's jurisdiction is restricted to the confines of the field and designated warm-up areas. (3-5-1; 3-6-1; 3-6-6)"

So a team cannot have a designated warm up area outside the confines of the field.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

You'll find your answer in NFHS Case Play 1.7.3 Situation B:

"While the game is in progress, the umpire notices that a non-adult is warming up the pitcher, but is not wearing an approved helmet and mask combination and throat protector (a) within the confines of the field, or (b) outside the confines of the field.

"RULING: In (a), the umpire shall warn the pitcher's head coach of the infraction and prohibit the pitcher from warming up with that individual until the non-adult secures the proper equipment. The next player not properly equipped will result in the player and the head coach being restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. In (b), rules prohibit team personnel from being outside the confines of the playing area or designated warm-up areas during a contest. The umpire shall warn the head coach of this infraction. The next offender is restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. The umpire's jurisdiction is restricted to the confines of the field and designated warm-up areas. (3-5-1; 3-6-1; 3-6-6)"

So a team cannot have a designated warm up area outside the confines of the field.

Certainly pertinent, but they still don't answer the question of where the "designated warm up area" can be.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Certainly pertinent, but they still don't answer the question of where the "designated warm up area" can be.

Well, I read the case play as saying that players cannot be outside the confines of the field, so the designated warm-up areas must be within the confines of the field.

There has to be some semblance of control of the players by the coaches. They are ultimately responsible for them, and they cannot maintain control if their players are away somewhere where they cannot see them. That's why the rules require the players to stay within the confines of the field, as the case play answer (b) states. If they must stay within those confines at all times, then it's counter-intuitive to have a designated warm-up area that is outside of those confines.

I cannot believe that NFHS would allow players to warm up somewhere where they cannot be supervised. Imagine a bullpen that is behind a copse of trees beyond the parking lot, where nobody can see a pitcher and catcher warming up unless he/she crosses the lot and walks on a path through the trees. Who's going to check to make sure that catcher has her helmet/mask on when she's in a crouch? Do you think NFHS would say that's okay? No way I would consider that a legal "designated warm-up area".

[Edited to add:] If it is okay for a designated warm-up area to be outside the confines of the field, then I would expect the answer to (b) in the case play to say something like, "If the players are in a designated warm-up area that is outside the confines of the field, the umpires have no jurisdiction to enforce the helmet/mask requirement for the catcher, but should inform the coach that the catcher is not wearing the proper equipment," which is similar to the ruling in case play 10.1.2 Situation A. Since there is nothing in the answer that even suggests that a designated warm-up area can be outside the confines, it's pretty clear to me NFHS's position once the game begins. I don't need something definitively written in the rule book to tell me that the warm-up area has to be within the confines of the field. From a safety and well-being of the players point of view, it must be somewhere where the coaches and umpires can see them.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, I read the case play as saying that players cannot be outside the confines of the field, so the designated warm-up areas must be within the confines of the field.

There has to be some semblance of control of the players by the coaches. They are ultimately responsible for them, and they cannot maintain control if their players are away somewhere where they cannot see them. That's why the rules require the players to stay within the confines of the field, as the case play answer (b) states. If they must stay within those confines at all times, then it's counter-intuitive to have a designated warm-up area that is outside of those confines.

I cannot believe that NFHS would allow players to warm up somewhere where they cannot be supervised. Imagine a bullpen that is behind a copse of trees beyond the parking lot, where nobody can see a pitcher and catcher warming up unless he/she crosses the lot and walks on a path through the trees. Who's going to check to make sure that catcher has her helmet/mask on when she's in a crouch? Do you think NFHS would say that's okay? No way I would consider that a legal "designated warm-up area".

[Edited to add:] If it is okay for a designated warm-up area to be outside the confines of the field, then I would expect the answer to (b) in the case play to say something like, "If the players are in a designated warm-up area that is outside the confines of the field, the umpires have no jurisdiction to enforce the helmet/mask requirement for the catcher, but should inform the coach that the catcher is not wearing the proper equipment," which is similar to the ruling in case play 10.1.2 Situation A. Since there is nothing in the answer that even suggests that a designated warm-up area can be outside the confines, it's pretty clear to me NFHS's position once the game begins. I don't need something definitively written in the rule book to tell me that the warm-up area has to be within the confines of the field. From a safety and well-being of the players point of view, it must be somewhere where the coaches and umpires can see them.

It says OR, meaning the warm-up area might not be in the confines of the field.

How is this any different from a field where warm-up ares are hidden under the stands?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

You'll find your answer in NFHS Case Play 1.7.3 Situation B:

"While the game is in progress, the umpire notices that a non-adult is warming up the pitcher, but is not wearing an approved helmet and mask combination and throat protector (a) within the confines of the field, or (b) outside the confines of the field.

"RULING: In (a), the umpire shall warn the pitcher's head coach of the infraction and prohibit the pitcher from warming up with that individual until the non-adult secures the proper equipment. The next player not properly equipped will result in the player and the head coach being restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. In (b), rules prohibit team personnel from being outside the confines of the playing area or designated warm-up areas during a contest. The umpire shall warn the head coach of this infraction. The next offender is restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. The umpire's jurisdiction is restricted to the confines of the field and designated warm-up areas. (3-5-1; 3-6-1; 3-6-6)"

So a team cannot have a designated warm up area outside the confines of the field.

That isn't what it states.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Certainly pertinent, but they still don't answer the question of where the "designated warm up area" can be.

Simple. Wherever they designate it to be. So many fields, so many different designated areas.