Scoring Question Redux

[Eastshire]

Ok, let's take it one step further................if an indirect kick is taken and it deflects off the keeper's hands into the goal, is it an own goal?

That's a good question. I think the answer for me is yes. If the keeper just let's it go, it's a goal kick. His action causes the goal so it's his.

[phatneff]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

That's a good question. I think the answer for me is yes. If the keeper just let's it go, it's a goal kick. His action causes the goal so it's his.

Ok, this is my opinion. If a ball is heading in the direction of the goal (i.e., a shot on goal compared to a shot that would go wide or above the goal) from an offensive player, that player should be given credit for the goal, assuming he is the last offensive player to touch it, and regardless if it touches a defensive player before entering the goal. The throw-in would fit this criteria.

I think of an own goal as the opposite of that, where the ball is NOT heading in the direction of the goal but deflects off a defensive player into the goal, such as from a crossing pass.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by phatneff

Ok, this is my opinion. If a ball is heading in the direction of the goal (i.e., a shot on goal compared to a shot that would go wide or above the goal) from an offensive player, that player should be given credit for the goal, assuming he is the last offensive player to touch it, and regardless if it touches a defensive player before entering the goal. The throw-in would fit this criteria.

I think of an own goal as the opposite of that, where the ball is NOT heading in the direction of the goal but deflects off a defensive player into the goal, such as from a crossing pass.

I don't think of it so much in directions but potentials. A DFK on goal which is tipped by the keeper but goes in was always a potential goal so award it to the kicker. An IFK on goal which was tipped by the keeper and goes in was not a potential goal until the keeper played it, so award it to the keeper.

In general, kicking an IFK directly on goal or throwing a throw-in directly on goal is a mental error. I wouldn't want to encourage it.

[phatneff]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I don't think of it so much in directions but potentials. A DFK on goal which is tipped by the keeper but goes in was always a potential goal so award it to the kicker. An IFK on goal which was tipped by the keeper and goes in was not a potential goal until the keeper played it, so award it to the keeper.

In general, kicking an IFK directly on goal or throwing a throw-in directly on goal is a mental error. I wouldn't want to encourage it.

Valid point. However, mental errors can be controlled (supposedly). Physical errors can't.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by phatneff

Valid point. However, mental errors can be controlled (supposedly). Physical errors can't.

True, but a keeper touching an IFK or a throw-in in this manner is a mental error.

[phatneff]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

True, but a keeper touching an IFK or a throw-in in this manner is a mental error.

That's my point. He should be punished for mental errors. Just like in baseball, physical errors are acceptable, but mental errors will cost you even more.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by phatneff

That's my point. He should be punished for mental errors. Just like in baseball, physical errors are acceptable, but mental errors will cost you even more.

Ok, I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not.

The kicker and the keeper both have made a mental error in kicking directly on goal and touch an IFK. We're not going to reward the kicker by crediting him with the goal and we are going "punish" the keeper for his error by crediting him with an own goal.

Do you agree?

[phatneff]

LOL, we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Cool?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Ok, I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not.

The kicker and the keeper both have made a mental error in kicking directly on goal and touch an IFK. We're not going to reward the kicker by crediting him with the goal and we are going "punish" the keeper for his error by crediting him with an own goal.

Do you agree?

Ok, I'm new to soccer....coached for many years but have officiated a grand total of about a 6 full games (1 C, 4 AR, 1 solo) and a few short Jamborees.

But, It is not necessarily true that the kicker is making an error in kicking it at the goal. If close enough and given the line, the kicker might try to blast it off of the keeper and hope it goes in or hope that the keeper would instinctively reach for the ball.

I would think the point should be credited with the player who gave the ball its primary impetus.....a deflection is credited to the player who kicked it into the deflection. An attempt to clear the ball that is poorly executed or an error where the player deliberately kicks it toward their own goal (either being confused or trying to pass to a teammate in that direction who misses the ball) would be an own goal.

Said another way, if the ball was in the goal solely by the actions of a defender....own goal. If an offensive action was material in the ball ending up in the goal, credit the appropriate offensive player. It doesn't matter that the offensive player can't score it entirely alone (without it touching another player).

Parallel basketball play....

A1 has the ball for a throwin. A1 can not legally score from a throwin. B5 guarding A1 on the throwin. A1 shoots the ball anyway and it is tipped by B5. Ball goes in. There is nothing in the rules that says this is not a try....but only that it is a violation for it to enter the goal without touching another player. A1 scored the points.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Ok, I'm new to soccer....coached for many years but have officiated a grand total of about a 6 full games (1 C, 4 AR, 1 solo) and a few short Jamborees.

But, It is not necessarily true that the kicker is making an error in kicking it at the goal. If close enough and given the line, the kicker might try to blast it off of the keeper and hope it goes in or hope that the keeper would instinctively reach for the ball.

I would think the point should be credited with the player who gave the ball its primary impetus.....a deflection is credited to the player who kicked it into the deflection. An attempt to clear the ball that is poorly executed or an error where the player deliberately kicks it toward their own goal (either being confused or trying to pass to a teammate in that direction who misses the ball) would be an own goal.

Said another way, if the ball was in the goal solely by the actions of a defender....own goal. If an offensive action was material in the ball ending up in the goal, credit the appropriate offensive player. It doesn't matter that the offensive player can't score it entirely alone (without it touching another player).

Parallel basketball play....

A1 has the ball for a throwin. A1 can not legally score from a throwin. B5 guarding A1 on the throwin. A1 shoots the ball anyway and it is tipped by B5. Ball goes in. There is nothing in the rules that says this is not a try....but only that it is a violation for it to enter the goal without touching another player. A1 scored the points.

The only material offensive action is the goal keeper touching the ball.

It's not a good plan to hope for your opponent to make a stupid play, particularly when there are other, better ways to score on an IFK.

In your basketball play, A1 has not made a try for goal because he has not "attempt[ed] to score two points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket" (NFHS 4-41-2) since he cannot score from a throw-in (NFHS 5-1-1). The goal is not credited to any player but recorded as a footnote (NFHS 5-2-3).

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

In your basketball play, A1 has not made a try for goal because he has not "attempt[ed] to score two points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket" (NFHS 4-41-2) since he cannot score from a throw-in (NFHS 5-1-1). The goal is not credited to any player but recorded as a footnote (NFHS 5-2-3).

That's what I was thinking. Of course, that doesn't stop any scorekeeper/statistician -- be it basketball or soccer -- from crediting any score to an offensive player.