AR's

phatneff · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 06, 2007, 09:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IDref

Phatneff did not say that the center referee can not call offside, but should not.
In almost all pregames I've been given, or have given myself, I'm told or I tell my AR's that their primary responsibility is the offside call. Their position should be second to last defender or ball. The referee's position is not usually the one with the best position to determine if an offside infraction occured. But, upon advice from a properly placed AR, it is always the center referee who blows the whistle, stops play, and awards the indirect free kick.

***
In a HS game earlier this week, the other AR clearly can not keep up with the dominating attacking team and judge offside.
Referee (knowing 90% of the play is happening in that half) shifts his positioning to be able to run close to with the defensive line on the far side from the AR. He signals to me to watch over the entire "other" half, in case of a quick clear, which he would be way out of position for.

But that can only happen because 90% of play is in one half. In a more competitive game, the referee can't afford to get so out of position and risk missing the other elements of the game, fouls misconduct etc.

EXACTLY!! Thank you, IDref!

No offense, but it doesn't surprise me that I would get the response I got from the other two guys. Judging from all the responses that I've seen posted by you two (primarily Nevada), I wouldn't like to be a part of your crew. You (Nevada) seem to be a rules-based official, quoting rule references, and not seeming to officiate based on the play of the game. You seem to want to be in charge of the whole game. As the center, you are the "leader" of the crew, but you are not THE judge. If you think that you are going to make an offside call without the help of your AR, you are destined to lose respect from everyone else involved (AR, coaches, players, fans), whether you're correct or not in that ruling. It comes down to a point of ethics. Of course my pregame covers how I want them to make sure that the offside line is their primary responsibility. But, no matter how many times you say that, it doesn't mean that they will follow those directions. That's usually because they are out of shape and can't keep up, or they are too busy "watching" the game rather than officiating it. The ethical part is that everyone has a responsibility. If someone is not upholding his responsibility, you do your best to cover them.......within reason! Calling offside from a position that is not in line with the next to last defender is NOT within reason. You discuss this with the AR at halftime, after the game, or even at a dead ball instance in order to make everyone look like they are in the game. But you DON'T take over their responsibilities. Would you call out of bounds if you're thirty yards away and you THINK the ball went out, even though the AR is on the line?? I seriously hope not. If so, I feel sorry for the players for whom you officiate.

I am 34 for years old and have played soccer since I was 5. I still do, on an Amateur League team. I've been an official for over 10 years now, and have been on several State final and Regional crews. Being on both sides of the ball, I understand that human error is part of the game. One thing that a player DOES NOT LIKE is an official who will quote ruling entries but has no idea how the flow of a game should go. If I had my choice, as I guarantee 95% of all other players would, too, I would prefer to have an official who knows the rules, but not to a T, and who understands the flow of a game and knows when to say "I missed it. My bad." I do NOT want someone who makes rulings and decisions based upon what it says in THE BOOK.

Now, with all of that being said, if a player is cherry-picking down by the goalie and the ball gets played to him, and the AR fails to signal offside, then yes, I would call that on my own. Anything remotely close to being onside (by that, I mean even if they appear to be off by 20 yards), I leave to the AR.

refnrev · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 07, 2007, 04:00pm

phatneff,
You seem to be taking offense at something where none is intended. For example: In last night's game I had last years state champions against a much weaker team. I'm AR and stronger team is headed my way. Weaker team ran a trap at mid-field all first half. I sprinted hard from the mid to the 6 or end the entire 40 minutes. Was it hard to stay with the next to last defender? Absolutely... at 6 minutes in I wondered how I was going to get through another 34 minutes, but thankfully I did. I was the youngest guy on the crew last night and I'm 48. The players are 16, 17, 18 and cat quick.
I'd invite you to think of it this way. There are going to be times that your AR is going to have real trouble staying with that fast running defender and may not be able to get back into position. That's a given. There may be times when it's wet and he slips. It'll happen. When he can't get there and you as CR see something, call it. You're doing your job and helping your crew work together. You might get some grief from a coach, but at least the grief is for the right call not a missed one. Something to think about.
As for me being a rule book official, you missed that call by a mile.

phatneff · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 07:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by refnrev

phatneff,
You seem to be taking offense at something where none is intended. For example: In last night's game I had last years state champions against a much weaker team. I'm AR and stronger team is headed my way. Weaker team ran a trap at mid-field all first half. I sprinted hard from the mid to the 6 or end the entire 40 minutes. Was it hard to stay with the next to last defender? Absolutely... at 6 minutes in I wondered how I was going to get through another 34 minutes, but thankfully I did. I was the youngest guy on the crew last night and I'm 48. The players are 16, 17, 18 and cat quick.
I'd invite you to think of it this way. There are going to be times that your AR is going to have real trouble staying with that fast running defender and may not be able to get back into position. That's a given. There may be times when it's wet and he slips. It'll happen. When he can't get there and you as CR see something, call it. You're doing your job and helping your crew work together. You might get some grief from a coach, but at least the grief is for the right call not a missed one. Something to think about.
As for me being a rule book official, you missed that call by a mile.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that I didn't state my case clearly enough. My point is that the EFFORT to keep up was not there and it didn't seem like it was in their "best interest" to do so. They are too busy WATCHING the game and not OFFICIATING the game. I applaud your effort, Refnrev, and I know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be constantly on the offside line. Again, my point is that if there is no effort to do so, it looks really bad. Yes, accidents happen as far as slipping or tripping, but that is not what I'm talking about.

NO, I will NOT call an offside from the center position if it is not TOTALLY OBVIOUS (and that's up to my discretion, I guess).

Regarding being a rules-based official, I think I was primarily talking about Nevadref and not you, Refnrev. I don't doubt that you and Nevada are respectable officials, but I just think your style is much different than mine by calling a game by the book rather than by the flow of the game.

refnrev · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 08:12am

Good points made all the way around especially about the effort. When it's not there it shows for everyone to see. As for your observations about one of our posters you would be 1000% correct. However, regardless of how it might have seemed from a previous quote, please rest assured that I am not even close to being a rules based official. I do work with some ... in other sports as well, and frankly, they drive me crazy. From what you have said, you and I are probably a lot more alike in our officiating styles than you might have first thought. I'm there for the good of the game... and that requires a lot of interpretation, leeway (sp?) and common sense. Some calls are black and white. But a whole lot of them fall into that tricky area of grey where common sense and good rules applications apply.

phatneff · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 11:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by refnrev

Good points made all the way around especially about the effort. When it's not there it shows for everyone to see. As for your observations about one of our posters you would be 1000% correct. However, regardless of how it might have seemed from a previous quote, please rest assured that I am not even close to being a rules based official. I do work with some ... in other sports as well, and frankly, they drive me crazy. From what you have said, you and I are probably a lot more alike in our officiating styles than you might have first thought. I'm there for the good of the game... and that requires a lot of interpretation, leeway (sp?) and common sense. Some calls are black and white. But a whole lot of them fall into that tricky area of grey where common sense and good rules applications apply.

I believe that we probably are very similar!