throw-in test question

[grizzlierbear]

If time allows would you care to tackle and tweak the logic of the following
I am preparing an assistant referee test and the question might read:
Throw-ins are a simple method of restarting play, consider the following circumstances carefully and according to the letter of the law state the correct procedures you would follow and appropriate restarts you would feel the center referee should apply. "Assume a throw in takes place from the correct spot where the ball crossed the TouchLine from a player with a correct stance and delivery only the ball travels parallel to the touch line outside the Field Of Play for 50 feet before it brushes the outer edge of the TouchLine plane. On its flight, you hear several people yelling "Never in!" Consequently a (1) spectator
(2) Defending player (3) attacking player (4) defending coach (5) Defending Substitute catches the ball in mid flight some 70 feet away from the thrower before the ball has hit the ground. In each of the 5 instances, state your course of action and reasoning? If there is any response to this question I will add my solutions later.

[whistleblowerusa]

Your question is a bit confusing. Are you asking how the clean up the question or what the answers should be. Here's what I suggest:
1- for "Throw-ins are a simple method of restarting play," just state that a throw in is one method of restarting play.

2-for "correct procedures you would follow and appropriate restarts you would feel the center referee should apply." try what decision would you as referee make and what would be the restart.

3- for- ""Assume a throw in takes place from the correct spot where the ball crossed the TouchLine from a player with a correct stance and delivery", should read, Assume the throw-in was taken correctly according to the law 15.

The rest is OK. Always keep the questions to the point and clear and simple.
Do you need the answers?

[whistleblowerusa]

Here is my answers to your questions, as well as, the restarts. First, the ball is in play since it has broken the plane of the touch-line. So...
1- Spectator catches the ball:
Stop play and then restart play with a drop ball at the spot where the ball was caught. The spectator was an outside agent who interfered with play.

2- Defending player catches the ball:
Stop play and award a direct free kick to the opponents (attacking team) at the spot of the infringement. No caution is needed.

3- Attacking player catches the ball:
Stop play and award a direct free kick to the opponents (defending team) at the spot of the infringement. No caution needed.

4- Defending coach catches the ball:
Stop play and restart with a drop ball at the spot where the ball was caught.. Coach is an outside agent that interfered with play. No caution needed.

5- Defending sub catches the ball:
Stop play and restart with a drop ball at the spot where the ball was caught. The sub is an outside agent that interfered with play.

[Greyhound]

From a game management viewpoint I would retake the throwin. It is just another restart. Not a big deal. You are diggin a hole for yourself to make a big deal out of this.

[whistleblowerusa]

Of course your answer is the correct one by using common sense. But, the answers that I have given are in response to the original question by grizzlierbear
about writing a question for a test according to the Laws of the Game. As I hope you know, you can't answer those test questions with common sense or you will fail. You most answer strctly on the Laws of the Game.

[grizzlierbear]

Thank you to those who took their time to respond.

In posting the original thread, I had no idea of the intensity of the individuals responding would raise this query "Hey I paid good money for this!" The validity of my question was entirely self centered. Originally, I was not concerned with any opinion other than my own. I was simply looking for clarification of a few facts from my peers. If I had worded the question differently perhaps, we could have avoided some unpleasantness. Many opportunities to score are generated from a throw especially at the mid-youth to adult level. Which team is entitled to possession is of far greater interest to me than the mechanics of the throw. No big deal, maybe, for some, but speaking as a coach and player why would a referee say rethrow when it should be my teams possession? I am not an instructor only a coach who was so livid with referees for screwing up that I became a referee to find out why they try so hard to screw up this wonderful game. My initial reaction to Greyhounds poignant 2nd comment was one of bewilderment, I took exception to the tone of the response and contacted Greyhound personally, to ask "Why?" and Whistleblower, to ask, "What do you think? While I greatly appreciated the assistance and support of Whistleblower, I was disturbed he had somehow become embroiled in a defending roll and I am most unhappy that the discussion dissolved into trading insults. While my happiness may not be at the forefront of either Greyhound or Whistle blowers considerations Grey hounds comments have never insulted me personally. Opinions to me are like water off a ducks back, no self respecting official's armored shell should be dented by the thought that someone dared to fire a few salvos of dissent across my bow. However, I sensed a real animosity in the dialogue between Whistleblower and Greyhound. I felt that it was somehow my fault even if I couldn't figure out why?
I recognize Greyhounds concern with triviality but I adamantly refute the preposterous idea that the posting of my question on this forum in any way discourages young referees from continuing their education. It takes considerable character to become a good referee. To apply the rules of law within the framework of practical game management is no easy task for the fainthearted.
I have considered the weeding out process of officials to be in part the ability to deal with abuse. Nit picking the laws may well serve no useful purpose other than to clarify or perhaps muddy the convictions of the faint hearted but absolutely nothing is more lethal to young referees' discouragement and abandonment from the game than the dissent and abuse originating from the TouchLine and the failure on the part of local associations to protect the referee, remove those who lack the integrity and fairplay to allow the game to be fun and educate those concerned.
Writing the 1,2 or 3 day "By the Book Exam" is the probably the easiest thing a referee will do. Game Management comes from experience and the Spirit of the game is instilled if integrity and the principles of fairplay are contained within the individual to begin with.
Fairplay is in the universal acceptance that there is a right and a wrong way to play and officiate a game. It is a spirit, which compels us to value the conduct even if we can not agree on exactly what that conduct should be.


Three central trains of thought were generated by my throw in question.

(1) Why bother with such trivial stuff just retake the throw. My response "Just remember common sense rarely bodes as well in exams as it does on the field. It is crucial in any man or game management action the referee have match control and not relinquish it to players, coaches or spectators. The incidents are only to make a point. The purpose of the question is to make the assistant referee aware of duties and responsibilities not just follow the letter of the law or apply common sense when needed.

(2) If the thrower must take the throw in from the point where the ball left the field of play. Must not the ball also enter the field from the point where it crossed the TouchLine as well? My response "While it is mandatory for the thrower to take the throw in from the point where it crossed the TouchLine. The ball is in play immediately upon entering the field of play.
Remember the throw in is the only restart where the ball begins outside the Field of Play. The TouchLine is indeed part of the Field of Play and should the ball barely brush the outer edge of the TouchLine the ball is legally in play at that moment it breaks the plane.
It is understandable to compare a throw in taken 6 meters back from the touch line in an effort to spring a quick attack as similar to the ball travelling 15 meters from where it had left the field before reentering but I can find nothing in the law to confirm this.
My opinion is No, only the thrower position not the ball need originate at the point where the ball crossed the Touch Line.

If my opinion is incorrect than the correct restart would be to award a throw in for the other team as the ball would be incorrectly put into play. The question would be in error as no other options would be present.

This is a position steadfastly maintained by our English counterpart in the UK. One in which we agree to disagree for the moment. He has a remarkable web site that is one of the best I've come across. His quote is below.
http://www.carosi.freeserve.co.uk/co...eree/index.htm
"Anyway...... back to the question. You've kept me busy for the best part of today, and it has helped take my mind off other matters!.I have posted your question as Question No. 27 on my Throw-in page. I hope that you do not mind?
In answer to your query about where the ball should re-enter. It should re-enter near to where it went out. I have given many throws to the opposing teams because
the ball has been delivered into play at an angle some 20 or 30 yards further down the touch line."

(3) Thank you To those that acknowledged the question and responded with improvements, answers and criticisem. Here is the final draft of the question. The answers have been given with several principles in mind but only reflect my opinion and should not be taken as FIFA LAW.

(A) Absolute adherence to the letter of the law.
(B) Understanding of duties and priorities by the assistant referee.
(C) Correct decisions and restarts
(D) Common Sense and Game Management

Consider the following circumstances carefully.
" Assume a throw-in was taken correctly according to the law 15. The ball travels parallel to the TouchLine outside the Field of Play for 50 feet before it brushes the outer edge of the TouchLine plane. During it's flight, you hear several people yelling "Never in" Consequently a…..
(1) Spectator (2) Defending player (3) Attacking player (4) Attacking coach (5) Defending Substitute
catches the ball in mid flight some 70 feet away from the thrower before the ball has hit the ground.

(A) In your opinion, state your duties, responsibilities and reasoning in this incident up the point where the ball is caught?
(B) In each of the five instances, state the correct course of action and restart as a center referee.

As an assistant referee, my duties are to assist the center referee with match control by providing clear signals and communication with flag and eye contact. Depending on instructions from the center referee I believe my priority would still be staying level with the second last defender but I would protect my Line of Sight along the Touch Line by ensuring all fans, substitutes and coaching staff were back far
enough to provide a clear line of sight along the TouchLine. I would ask the center referee for assistance if intimidated or hassled by encroaching spectators.
If I noticed the ball break the plane along the TouchLine only slightly at 50 feet, I would be vigilante in raising my flag if it now left the Field of Play.
If I could accurately determine whether the ball was clearly in or out of play when it was caught as this would effect the restart and any subsequent decisions.
I am unclear as to approved FIFA communication Protocol but if I heard people yelling "Never In!" and I was certain the ball was now in play I would try and catch the eye of the referee with a mouthing of "good throw" and perhaps a thumbs up.
A confident center referee might call out "play the whistle" or perhaps use rule 18 and or retake or award a throw to the opposing team. If I believed the throw was valid I would not raise my flag and allow the center referee to make the call. If I believed the ball never entered the Field of Play, I would signal a throw in for the same team if the ball was caught. outside the field of play.
In answer to the correct call and restart I believe the ball was in play the moment it touched the outer edge of the touch line. Since the original question leaves us to infer the ball is still in play the following conditions apply.

(1) Spectator; As an outside agent interfering with play. Play is stopped. The spectator is removed from the Field of Play. Play is restarted with a dropped ball at the place it was caught.
(2) Defending player; Play is stopped. The player could be (but not warranted) cautioned shown the yellow card for unsporting behavior. Play is restarted with a direct free kick to the opposing team from where the ball was caught.
(3) Attacking player; Play is stopped. The player could be (but not warranted) cautioned shown the yellow card for unsporting behavior. Play is restarted with a direct free kick to the opposing team from where the ball was caught.
(4) Attacking coach; As an outside agent interfering with play. Play is stopped. The coach is removed from the Field of Play. No disciplinary action against a team official need be taken but if so it must also be included in the referee's match report. Play is restarted with a dropped ball at the place it was caught.
(5) Defending Substitute; As an outside agent interfering with play. Play is stopped. The substitute could be (but not warranted) cautioned shown the yellow card for entering the Field of Play without the referees permission and required to leave the field of play. Play is restarted with a dropped ball at the place it was caught.
Please temper your decisions with common sense. While the rules allows you to use the power, remember the spirit of the game.
As a matter of FIFA law a throw in that is truly "Never In" must be retaken. However I personally agree with the US high school bylaws which awards the throw to the opposing team.


[Edited by grizzlierbear on May 29th, 2001 at 06:16 PM]

[whistleblowerusa]

Good stuff! But, I would like to add that the substitute is also an outside agent and that is why you would have a drop ball (you left that out). Also, we are being instructed not only by FIFA but also by USSF, to, as ARs, be more involved in making calls. You shouldn't rely on the Referee to make the call. If the ball was clearly in play when any of the described incidents happened, then you are required as the AR to raise your flag and give a little wiggle or wave, and if not that at least raise the flag to signal the Referee that something is wrong, stop play. At that moment, after the Referee blows his whistle and stops play, you can mouth or just verbally state what has happened. The Referee can not make that call on his own, that is why we have ARs to help control the game. Whe teams see a Referee and an AR signal together it gives the appearence that they are working as a team and helps add confidence to the teams as far as believablity to the calls.
If you watch a pro game or international match, you will see the ARs signal a foul or touch line call just as the Referee is blowing his whistle.

[grizzlierbear]

I tend to lean towards letting the centre referee make the call if he or she is in the immediate area. Your point about raising the flag once the ball was caught is well taken as a support move. As a centre referee I always encourage active participation by the assisstant referees.
Thanks for all your input Whistleblower

[Greyhound]

For the love of god I thought I only had to put up with this stuff once a year at recert. IT IS A LOUSY THROW IN!
I now understand that your original question was "how can I take a straight forward question and screw it around to make it boring and irrelevent to my students" "please ensure that no real answer applicable to what real officials will do is included and that the ambiguity of the situation is increased not CLEARED UP for my class."
I would suggest that you could better use your time and your students by discussing more relevant parts of the game and avoid the impression that this discussion is in anyway important. There are MANY resons why we cant get kids to stay on as officials.
Typical..........

[whistleblowerusa]

Hey Greyhound, sounds like you're one the refs that can't bother to learn the Laws of the Game nor cares to improve himself. Why be so insulting to someone trying to make things better?
By the way, you are wrong about it being just a lousy throw-in. At National Camp we spend hours discussing these very type of incidents. Our responses become the interpretations for the whole Country. There are no silly thoughts or questions. It is important to discuss these things so we all get the call right.
(unless you are one of those guys who just go out for the game fee)
Don't waste your own time complaining. Be part of the solution!

[Greyhound]

I will be in therapy for weeks recovering from your insults. You seems to tolerate dissent on the field well enough but not in a public forum. Should I defend my knowledge of the laws? Nah!
Next we can talk about the idiocincracies of the flip throwin. Exactly HOW far from the line should a trower be? How long after the ball has left his hands should his feet remain in contact with the ground? Just how evenly should both hands be used? What if one foot does marginally cross the touch line?
Its not a throwin clinic its a football match. And NOBODY calls this stuff past the U16 level. Kind of makes all the talk about it painfully irrelevent, doesnt it?

[whistleblowerusa]

Your great at calling insults,maybe not so great at calling the game as it should be. I also think that you are a coward and somewhat a bully who thinks that he is always correct. I'm am not close to being insulted by your stupid remarks. You're very much like a coach who has to have the last word in, I usually ignore them. I'm sure that you'll have to feed your ego once more by getting the last word in.
Oh and by the way, your knowledge of the Laws of the Game are very suspect at this point. Although I'm sure you are "by the book" always. Makes the game fun for everyone that way.
Good Bye.

[Art N]

whistleblower, you need to calm down and respect others opinons. We can gain by the feed back of others. It doesn't serve any positive purpose to attack a fellow official's remarks (we get enough from fans, coaches, players...)
We need more participation in this froum, not less. Don't be rude just becasue someone has a different view than yours. Otherwise, you will come off as an arrogant know-it-all, to those who don't you know.
As John Lennon once said. "GIVE PEACE A CHANCE", gentlemen.

[whistleblowerusa]

If you have read ALL the posts then you would clearly see my support and also how I've tried to help. Greyhound is an insulting know-it-all who cannot see what experience and knowledge I have tried to share. The views are in-correct and need to e corrected. We all look bad when things are not done properly.
He spent a lot of time just insulting grizzlierbear and I instead of opening his eyes and trying to learn something. Thanks for your input, but, I think that Greyhound is the one you need to speak to.

[Greyhound]

I havent personaly insulted anyone. I havent called anyone a bully, a know it all, a coward or stupid. I have chaalenged IDEAS.
I have stated my opinions, backed them up with reason and clarified my position. This seems to anger some who are not accustomed to being questioned or challenged.