In the opinion of the referee?

[grizzlierbear]

I have recieved several reponses to this question not all agree with each other. How about your opinion?
(1)In extended time for the taking of a penalty kick when is the kick finished? I had added 2 minutes to the second half just as the corner kick took place in the dying seconds a blatant foul preventing a goal scoring opportunity occurs. Red card for the defender and sent off the field. I then informed the two teams that time had expired but the penalty kick would take place. The game was deadlocked at 2 goals apiece and was as exciting a game as I had seen at the recreational level.You could cut the tension with a knife as the kicker lined up and the keeper set himself for the final battle. The kick is taken, as the keeper leaves his
line a wee bit early he dives up and to the left. The shot is too high and hits the cross bar rebounding away from the goal towards the keeper lying on his side some 5 meters out from the goal. The ball hits the back of his head and rolls at angle back towards
the goal line. By this time several players from each side are well inside the penalty area. One of the defenders rushes towards the goal in an effort to stop the ball from crossing the goal line. The keeper is trying to scamble on his hands and knees towards the ball while the original kicker runs off the defender who was attempting to stop the ball. You starting to get a feel for whats happening? A game which had been so fun to ref was heading to a situation which I knew was not going to be good. I was ready to blow the whistle at the moment it hit the crossbar and rebounded away from goal but when I saw the ball headed at the keeper I stopped. QUESTION (1) Should I have signaled play
over? On the ensuing deflection it did indeed cross the goal line as the pace on the ball prevented anyone from getting there in time. As this was a penalty kick in extended time,
should I have removed all players to the centre spot except for the keeper and the kicker? QUESTION (2) Is it manditory to do this in extended time? I know it is in a shoot out! QUESTION (3)Would failure to do so result in a protestable situation? ie failure by the referee to conduct the extended time penalty properly? As a result of the contact between the kicker and the defender an elbow was thrown into the face of the defender almost at the same time as the ball crossed the line. My whistle sounded long and loud.The question now was; Had the ball completely completely crossed over the goal line when the whistle sounded sounded? So now I had violent conduct or would serious foul play fit the Bill? Could I or should I allow the goal? Could I or should I card the player? What would you do to get yourself out of this mess? And what would you have done so none of this would have occurred? I considered myself to be a fairly competent referee but I am not sure an assessor would agree here. But the ball clearly was not going into the net until after the fortuitious rebound off the keeper. Because I was uncertain as to the ball location at the moment of whistle I did not allow the goal. Red carded the kicker for serious foul play. I ordered a retake, removed eveyone on the field
into the centre circle. The second attempt went smoothly and a goal was scored. I also should point out I did not have Assisstant referees for this game. I am just making excuses but it seems ironic that for an hour and a half I felt as if I had done such a good job only to be left with a bitter taste at the end


[Edited by grizzlierbear on May 31st, 2001 at 02:38 AM]

[whistleblowerusa]

The answer to your question is clearly stated in the laws (Law 14). When a penalty kick is taken during the normal course of play, or time has been extended at half-time or full time to allow a penalty kick to be taken or retaken, a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the crossbar the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper. If you blew your whistle before the ball entered, this is your common sense working here I think, then play was stopped, the penalty kick was not completed and the kick should be retaken, as well as, the sending off of the offending player.
The call is a good one, but hard to sell. Keep your chin up!

[Greyhound]

Back to an old subject...You dug yourself a hole when you said that time had expired. Might have just played the PK with ADDED time and saved yourself tons of trouble. EXACTLY why I don't and I tell my ARs not to set thier watches to beep at 45 minutes.

[whistleblowerusa]

You just don't get it. Time is over when it's over. Nothing was said about the time was ended at exactly 45 minutes. Why bend the Laws to suite yourself? The time had nothing to do with the outcome nor the send off or the goal. The laws are quite clear if you bother to read them. Adding time would not have avoided anything.

[Greyhound]

As long as you continue to profess the absolutes of this game you will have the problems that you have discribed above. I ll keep reading the laws, the ATR and the Guide to procedures and you keep having fiascos like this that send everyone home with a bad taste in thier mouth.

[whistleblowerusa]

Oh you're so-o-o-o-o right..... OK, I think I've stopped laughing, no wait..... Ok now I think I'm done.
Keep reading and maybe try going to a clinic and really paying attention next time. I can quote all of the books but that doesn't make me a good referee does it? I've proven myself many times over. I don't think that I need to prove what I've done or where I've worked or where I've been to you.
If you don't want any help, stay off this board. No need to waist your time reading opinions that are meaningless to you, you apparently know it all.
Good bye here too!

[grizzlierbear]

Should of, Could of, Would of

The consequences of my decisions have nothing to do with absolutes or adding time they have everything to do with not expecting any problems. I was too confident that nothing would go wrong. It did and I was unprepared to deal with it.
The game had all ready been extended the full 2 minutes of injury time at the occurrence of the corner kick foul. By the time I had red carded the player for preventing a goal scoring opportunity and dealt with the aftermath of discontent I could see no reason not to inform the teams this was an extended time penalty kick. It is not necessary by law to remove them to the center circle as in a shoot out situation. Only to remove them away from the immediate penalty area and inform everyone there can be no interference as time had expired and only the shooter and keeper had any business in the penalty area. Although Law 14 gives the impression that any deflection involving the goalposts, crossbar and keeper or any combination thereof could result in a legal goal. I believe if I had followed my gut, which was to blow the whistle when the shot hit the crossbar and rebounded away from the goal. the game would be over and the result a draw. Whatever dissent might have arisen if after the whistle the ball wound up back in the net I could easily justify my decision to the players if not the assessors. Perhaps the sound of my whistle would have caused the keeper to alter his position ever so slightly as not, to have the fluky rebound off the head. The shot clearly missed and in keeping with the spirit of the game, it bothered me because when your gut tells you should blow for a foul or compromising situation it generally is the correct game management decision.
In my opinion a goal should not be allowed if the ball hits the crossbar, rebounds back into play, hits the back of the goalkeeper's head after he has dived out into the field of play in extended time.
In other words, as soon as the ball rebounds back into play, the period should be ended and the penalty kick finished. If the ball deflects directly downwards from the crossbar, onto the head of the goalkeeper who is standing on his goal line, and travels over the goal line between the goalposts - the goal should be allowed.
However, in following this little debacle to its conclusion by allowing play to continue until the kicker's serious foul play or violent conduct? I am still unclear as to which is applicable because I remain unsure whether play was truly over. I originally thought once you have blown your whistle to end the match, you cannot red or yellow card players. I have been made aware that you can show cards to players prior and just after a games conclusion. I thought you could only write up an incident report. The Kicker's elbow incident would have to be recorded as either violent conduct or serious foul play. Since I had the penalty kick retaken I wrote it up as serious foul play and red carded the kicker.
Note: Serious Foul Play occurs when the ball is in play, and when two opponents are contesting for the ball.
Violent Conduct occurs outside of the immediate play action and can occur when the ball is in or out of play.
It has been stated by several others that once my whistle sounded the penalty kick was finished and play was over. I could not legally retake the penalty. Although there was a definite altercation it would not have prevented a goal and by blowing the whistle I effectively ended the game and would have to live with the consequences of no goal by ending the game before the ball completely crossed the goal line.
Humble pie anyone? I got lots left!!

[whistleblowerusa]

I just want to try to clear up some points to your situation and outcome. Law 14 clearly states that a goal is to be awarded if the ball touches either or both goal posts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper if the kick was taken in extended time ti allow for the PK. So it would have to be a goal, no way around that. There is no judgement just a fact on that call. If you blew your whistle to stop play before the ball crossed the goal line then the PK was not completed and most be retaken. You would send off the offending player for violent conduct since, I remember correctly, the ball was bouncing off of the keepers head and this player struck another player, therefore he was not playing or attempting to play the ball and connot be serious foul play.
The ball was still moving and therefore still in play, if the ball had not bounced off of the keeper then yes, there would be little chance that the ball would enter the goal and play would be over and the kick completed. You could not have blow the whistle to signal the kick completed after the ball struck the crossbar by way of Law 14.

[Greyhound]

I will never tell anyone to leave this board. Stay and disagree. .........I thought I read somewhere that you cant show cards aafter regulation. What is your reference for otherwise? I have looked and looked online and cant find it.

[whistleblowerusa]

Ah, good to hear from you. That has been one of those myths that somehow got started and I don't know where.
On the US Soccer Pro web site theer is a listing re-affirming what we are supposed to do. They have stressed this to referees at the top level but it is also meant to be used at all levels.
Try http://www.ussoccer-data.com
You will need a logon for most of the stuff there but you can access the Topics page. On that page you will find many good things that are new or re-worded. You will also find a topic Misconduct and showing of cards or something like that (I haven't looked at that one lately). It is a PDF document and you will need Adobe Acrobat to read it.

[grizzlierbear]

Sun 02 July 2000
Three players banned as UEFA punish Portugal
UEFA have imposed heavy penalties on the Portuguese national association and three members of the Portuguese team as a result of the incidents which took place at the end of Wednesday's semi-final against France.
Officials harassed UEFA's Control & Disciplinary Body announce their decision after meeting on Sunday morning in Rotterdam. They based their decision on the fact that in the 116th minute of a match in which five Portuguese players had been cautioned, the referee and his first assistant were pushed and harassed by Portuguese players, suffering bruising and scratches. The fourth official, who intervened in a bid to protect his colleagues, was also harassed, pushed in the back and pulled by his clothing. The referee, advised by his assistant, had awarded the French team a penalty for handball. The Portuguese coach eventually calmed down his players sufficiently for the penalty to be taken after a delay of some four to five minutes.
After the spot-kick had been converted, almost all the Portuguese players ran towards the assistant referee, who was pushed and insulted. An unidentified Portuguese player spat at him. Nuno Gomes gave the referee a violent push in the chest and Abel Xavier grabbed him by the arm.

The referee then showed the red card to Nuno Gomes, whereupon Paulo Bento tried to take the red card from him by grabbing his arm. Nuno Gomes then removed his shirt and threw it in the direction of the assistant referee.

Heavy fine, lengthy bans
In the light of these incidents, the Control & Disciplinary Body decided to impose a fine of 175,000 Swiss francs on the Portuguese national association. Three players have also received lengthy suspensions: Abel Xavier is suspended from all matches in UEFA competitions for nine months (until the end of March 2001), Nuno Gomes is suspended from all matches in UEFA competitions for eight months (until the end of February 2001), and Paulo Bento is suspended from all matches in UEFA competitions for six months (until the end of December 2000).

[grizzlierbear]

Just to clarify. The elbow was delivered while the kicker was trying to block the defender from playing the ball after the ball had hit the keeper and was angling towards the goalline. Both players were within the goal area about 4 meters from the ball as it was crossing the goal line. I believe the kicker was aware he could not touch it a second time and hoped to obstruct the defender. Speculation to be sure but does it change anything?
I still can not quite grasp why if I had of blown the quick whistle the game would not be over. I am sure you have explained it well enough perhaps I am too thick headed where my sense of right and wrong interferes with my judgement. It just seems to me the rules are at odds with the intent of the law and spirit of the game to allow a goal that had no chance of going in. Would it make any diference if the deflection hit the ground 1st then the keepers head? If the rebound had missed the keeper, continued out into the field further than the 5 meters where the keeper was laying at what point would the game be over? I promise this will be my last gasp at wrestling with this. Thanks for your patience

[whistleblowerusa]

I'll go over this as many times as you want, no problem.
The Laws can be very vague and mysterious. A penalty kick is not completed until the ball stops or crosses the goal line (or I assume the touchline if the kicker is such a bad shot), either under the crossbar and between the posts, or just over the goal line. If you had blow the whistle before any of these things had happened then the kick is not completed and must be retaken. No matter the reason why the whistle had been blown.
If the ball had been kicked, then deflected of the crossbar or post, hit the ground and then hit the keeper and went in, it would be a good goal and should be allowed per explaination above.
If the ball deflected of the crossbar or post and bounced back 5 yards the kick could be considered completed because this kick was taken in extended time and no one else can play the ball, the kicker would not be able to play the twice (even if the ball touched the keeper, because it is extended time) and most likely the keeper would not put the ball into his own net (hopefully). A fwe seconds hesitation wouldn't hurt before blowing the whistle.
Although your send off was correct and if happened as described, serious foul play would be the correct reason. However, remember that the kick is in extended time and that no other player including the kicker may touch the ball after the ball is kicked, (excluding the keeper of course). So the defender had no business being there in the first place, so what would be his "intent"? To stop the kicker from playing the ball. So in a way he was guilty of unsporting behaviour, you could caution him also if you wanted. This wouldn't sell easily. Next time in extended time move all players behind the top of the penalty area and explain that no one else may touch the ball after it is kicked because time has ended.

[Greyhound]

Found it! The ATR 3.14.......No cards after match has been completed....Added time to allow kicks would be different though.

[whistleblowerusa]

That's correct but the ATR was published in 1998 and written almost 2 years before. The new training that has been given in the past 2 years is not what it says in the ATR, a new version is soon to be published. If you look at the pro web page http://www.ussoccer-data.com you will find a button that is titled Topics. Click Topics and then scroll down until you see something titled Misconduct and Showing of Cards. Click on that, it is in PDf format and you will need Adobe Acrobat to read. IF you can't download or read I will be Gladd to post this memo from USSF on this site.
Let me know