Too many flags!

[Cliffdweller]

1st and 10 at the 50. A runs 11 yards for a first down. On the run there are two live ball fouls against A(illegal shift and a hold), one live ball foul against B(block in the back) and a dead ball foul against B(late hit).

How is this handled?

[JRutledge]

1st and 10 from the 35. Double foul would take place with the live ball fouls. You only apply the dead ball fouls.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

The only confusion arises from this way of stating the problem:

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

On the run there are...a dead ball foul against B(late hit).

The dead ball foul is not "on the run".

[Rich]

I'm confused by a block in the back against B.

If it's bad enough to call a personal foul for a UNR, fine, do that. Otherwise, how does the block take something away from A?

[Robert Goodman]

I just noticed something else that can cause confusion in the statement of the problem: the use of the word "against" to describe fouls when "by" is probably, but not necessarily, meant. A foul is committed by someone against an opponent (or just against nobody, in the case of some fouls); a penalty is assessed against a team whose player fouled.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

1st and 10 at the 50. A runs 11 yards for a first down. On the run there are two live ball fouls against A(illegal shift and a hold), one live ball foul against B(block in the back) and a dead ball foul against B(late hit).

How is this handled?

Cliff, pay no attention to Robert Goodman. He's not an official, just comes here to stir things up at times.

The live ball fouls offset, no matter how many there are. Penalize the dead ball foul against Team B.

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm confused by a block in the back against B.

If it's bad enough to call a personal foul for a UNR, fine, do that. Otherwise, how does the block take something away from A?

Many cheap shots by B are blocks in the back. Some officials choose to penalize it as a BIB.

However, I have seen Team A blockers blocked in the back so they could not block defenders who were pursing the runner, much like a DB who blocks a blocking FB below the waist to take him out.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I just noticed something else that can cause confusion in the statement of the problem: the use of the word "against" to describe fouls when "by" is probably, but not necessarily, meant. A foul is committed by someone against an opponent (or just against nobody, in the case of some fouls); a penalty is assessed against a team whose player fouled.

I just noticed I still comprehended everything he wrote in the opening post.

[Cliffdweller]

Thanks y'all for the responses AND the English lesson, I hated English in school! We did it exactly right after a long, hot and humid game that was a blow out! Happened with about 1 minute left in the game.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I just noticed something else that can cause confusion in the statement of the problem: the use of the word "against" to describe fouls when "by" is probably, but not necessarily, meant. A foul is committed by someone against an opponent (or just against nobody, in the case of some fouls); a penalty is assessed against a team whose player fouled.

So then you are saying the Illegal Shift was against the defense?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So then you are saying the Illegal Shift was against the defense?

No, that's one of those fouls against nobody.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

1st and 10 at the 50. A runs 11 yards for a first down. On the run there are two live ball fouls against A(illegal shift and a hold), one live ball foul against B(block in the back) and a dead ball foul against B(late hit).

How is this handled?

CANADIAN RULING:

This is a good one! I'll change the illegal shift to be illegal formation, since we don't have an illegal shift in the Cdn game. Likely the hold occured before the first down was earned, which means B would have to choose between the IF and the hold. B's block in the back is now a UR for us. Late hit is also UR. So that's 30 against B and 10 against A, AFD. With field size adjustments, the Canadian ruling is Team A 1D/10 @ B-35.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm confused by a block in the back against B.

If it's bad enough to call a personal foul for a UNR, fine, do that. Otherwise, how does the block take something away from A?

If a potential Team A blocker is disadvantage'd such that he can no longer block an opponent. This should be a foul. And shouldn't need to rise to a UNR before being called.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If a potential Team A blocker is disadvantage'd such that he can no longer block an opponent. This should be a foul. And shouldn't need to rise to a UNR before being called.

How often does that happen? Not often. My point was that a block in the back on a defender is viewed through a different lens than one on the offense. I've had crew members in lower level games call one when the defender was trying to get at a ball carrier and the official couldn't understand why that just wasn't a foul.

[Welpe]

I've seen one case of an illegal block in the back by a defender that I thought was absolutely a correct call.

It was during a college game and I was watching a B I knew work. His key went out on a short route and cut in front of the defender. The defender gave him a two handed shove in the back which knocked him down. Just as he went down the QB was releasing the pass to him which went incomplete.

The B flagged it and the R announced an illegal block in the back. It wasn't DPI nor was it illegal use of the hands because the receiver was still in front of the defender. I thought it was absolutely the right call.

I asked the B after the game if he would have called that if the pass hadn't gone to him just after. "Not in a million years."