two flags

[c it first]

A's ball 2nd and five at their 40 yard line. A 22, who has a wide open field, catches a legal forward pass at the 50 yardline. When he is at B's 10 yard line, A 34 blindsides B 76 at B's 30 yard line. I am the umpire trailing the play. I flag A 34. My flag doesn't hit the ground and B 76 retaliates and hits A 34 with a block that knocks him back a few yards. My second flag is in the air and I am yelling for them to stop, which they do. Both realize they have been flagged and trot away from each other.
My thought is offsetting penalties, replay the down. I then thought maybe not. I report to the white hat that I have unsportsmanlike conduct- unnecessary roughness on both players. I asked if we replay the down or mark off both penalities from the spot of the foul which would give A 1st and 10 at B's 30. The WH awards A a TD . He ruled the ball was in the EZ before the fouls, therefore the ball is dead and the penalties offset. Since the UC was initiated by A ,I thought this unfair. Did the WH get it right? This is 9th grade ball , nfhs rules.

[biglaz]

First of all, these were not USC fouls! USC=non-contact. You have two personal fouls. If they both occur during the down, offset and replay the down. If they both occur after the down is over, enforce in order of occurance--Dead-ball fouls NEVER offset!!

[c it first]

USC=non-contact - Thanks for the important tip.

I KNOW the first personal foul was during the run. The second may have happened after the ball was in the EZ. I asked for the offset ,replay the down but was overruled by the WH. It ticked me off because he was behind me further from the play. The wings defered to the WH. The WH has been around a long time while we are just starting out. ( 3 years) Anyway , if one foul is live ball and the other is dead ball how do you apply the penalities? Would it be A's ball 1st and 10 at B's 30 ?

[chris s]

Originally posted by c it first
USC=non-contact - Thanks for the important tip.

I KNOW the first personal foul was during the run. The second may have happened after the ball was in the EZ. I asked for the offset ,replay the down but was overruled by the WH. It ticked me off because he was behind me further from the play. The wings defered to the WH. The WH has been around a long time while we are just starting out. ( 3 years) Anyway , if one foul is live ball and the other is dead ball how do you apply the penalities? Would it be A's ball 1st and 10 at B's 30 ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Live ball PF on A at B's 10, then dead ball pf on B....march off the obviously accepted A foul......ball is now at 25, then 1/2 the distance the other way....IF a obtained the line to gain after the penaltys enforced.....FIRST DOWN..... these can get tricky on the field, but are quite simple

[mvp2jeter]

OK, I'm confused. Why wouldn't the penalties be marked off from the spot of the foul (B's 30)?

It seems to me the All But 1 Principle applies here because in "c it first's" ammended situation (A foul is live and B's is after the score) the spot of the foul hurts A (the live ball penalty) the worst. B's foul is a dead ball foul and should be assessed after all the other muck is taken care of.

A's ball 1st and 10 at B's 30.

This is the very thing that keeps me up late at night before a game. Please help me understand how to sort all this out.

Eric

[STEVED21]

It would be A's ball at the B30. The A foul occured at the 30 and was behind the basic spot( the end of the run which was the goal line) Where the ball was at the time of the foul has no consequence. The A foul puts the bal at B's 45 1st and ten since the reached the line to gain. B's dead ball foul brings the ball to the B30. 1st and ten.

[FJ]

This will be a little verbose, but maybe it will be helpful to some to see my thought process when enforcing a penalty.

So using NF rules, let's break down the possible enforcements. As others have said, these are personal fouls, and the real key is when they happened.


CASE 1: Both fouls happened before A scored. These are both live ball, and results in an offset. Repeat 2nd and 5 from the A40. Since the result of the play was a score, we start the clock on the snap.


CASE 2: A's foul occurs before the score. B's after. Now you have a live ball - dead ball situation and you enforce them in the order of occurance. A's foul happened during a running play. The basic spot is the end of the run (the goal line). A's foul occured BEHIND the basic spot (at the B30), so we enforce it from the spot of the foul. The Umpire marks the ball from the B30 15 yards back to the B45 while the R is signaling the first foul. The second foul is dead ball and enforced from the succeeding spot. The succeeding spot in this case is where enforcement of the first foul left the ball. So the U marks the ball forward 15 yards, while the R signals the second foul. The U should end up back at the B30. A's ball 1 & 10 at the B30. Clock starts on the snap.

You should always mark off both penalties, even though you end up at the same spot as where you started. To guarentee your U ends up at the same spot (I've seen some who haven't!), a bean bag or another official can hold the orignal enforcement spot.


CASE 3: Both fouls occur after the score. In this case, the score obviously counts, and both fouls are administered from the succeeding spot in order of their occurance. (If you see this happen in a college game, the R will just offset the 2 dead ball fouls. NCAA has a different rule for dealing with these. You will also see lots of high school R's do this, because it's fairer, but let's just stick with rules as written for this discussion.)

A's foul is dealt with first. The succeeding spot is the B3 for the try. So the U marks the ball back 15 yards to the B18 while the first foul is signaled. Now we deal with B's foul. The enforcement spot for that is the succeeding spot, which is now the B18. But we are inside the 30, so we can't go the full 15 yards. We can only go half the distance. So the U marks the ball forward to the B9, while the R signals the second foul. Because this is complicated, the R & U will take their time and agree on where the U is going to end up before he actually starts to march off the penalty. A's ball on the B9 for their try.

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Well, like I said, that was a little long. But maybe going through the whole thought process was of some use to a few of you.

[c it first]

Thanks FJ , your explanation makes sense to me. Since we were unsure when the 2nd flag was thrown ( the L was with the ballcarrier ) I firmly believe we should have went with offsetting live ball penalties,replay the down. The WH rushed to judgement and signaled TD for A . I was standing at B's 30 yl at the time. I made a attempt to suggest we discuss that call but WH wanted the ball positioned for the try. Since B's coaches were right behind me I decided to follow his instructions and reminded myself to convey body language in agreement with him even though I was not in agreement. It was fruitless to discuss this after the game. Frustrating stuff. Today I found out we were being evaluated by our chapter's rules interpeter. I am not sure if that is good or bad for me and the wings !

[cmathews]

A little interjection here which doesn't include the penalty enforcement FJ has it right on the money for all the situations. However for discussion lets consider a couple things. I am not going to question your judgement c it first. It sounds like the hit by A didn't knock the b player off his pins, I say this because the B player returned the "favor". One thing I look for on a hit like that is that A) the first contact knocks the opposition down, or B) the second player doesn't return the "favor". If A happens I certainly have a flag, if B happens I may or may not, but if B returns the favor and wasn't kocked down, I usually pass on the flag and talk to both of them. The WH may have been using this logic, and rather than waive off the flags, decided to make them offset, though he didn't really have a justification in the rules to do so..Just a thought to consider.

[Rich]

That's what I was thinking -- the WH may have decided that the flags were not justified and rather than show you up by waving them off decided to offset.

Before you call back a touchdown you need to make sure it's a good foul -- especially when it is away from the play like this.

Rich

[MD Longhorn]

One comment regarding, "The WH rushed to judgement and signaled TD for A.":

The WH SHOULD have signalled the TD as soon as the LJ or HL signalled that the runner had crossed the goalline. You still signal the result of the play on a TD, even if there are flags on the field. One thing a lot of younger refs (sometimes myself included) forget is to continue officiating even after a flag.

PS - WH may have concluded that since the actions were nearly simultaneous and retaliatory, and neither of the other officials were conclusive as to when the 2nd foul occurred, that both fouls were live-ball fouls - hence the offsetting penalties.

[keystoneref]

I disagree that the white hat should have signaled a touchdown as soon as the linesman or lj had a touchdown. The referee needs to check the field for flags and the other officials before he signals a touchdown. Why the rush for the signal from the referee, the linesman and judge had it covered. As the white hat I always check the field before signalling a touchdown (unless its my goalline).

[c it first]

1.) cmathews - in the situation the A player was approx. 150 lbs. The B player was approx. 280 lbs. It took a lot of guts for the A player to blindside the big guy and he almost knocked him over but I could see the cheap shot developing when the A player began his approach to unsuspecting B .
2.) mbcrowder - The WH asked me what I had. I told him unnecessary roughness on both players. He left me standing at the 30 , moved to open space and signaled touchdown. He then returned to me and said "we're going to offset the penalties because the ball was in the endzone, spot at the three for the try". !!!

We got it wrong and I do not like it one bit. There is no point for a 3 year official to upstage a 15 year official on the field. ( me ~ WH ) I am hoping the evaluator brings it up at our next meeting otherwise I am going to keep mouth shut and put the whole ugly mess behind me.

BTW - thanks for the replys. This forum is such a wealth of information. Invaluable.