A couple of plays

[chayos]

K1 scrimmage kicks from the K 25 yard line. The kick is short and on a dead run to receive the kick R10 muffs it at the K37 yard line. In an attempt to fight for the ball, R45 grabs and twists K32 by the face mask. The ball rolls to the K23 yard line where it is recovered by R45.

Ruling:

Score: A:21 – B:12. Second and 8 from the A6. A10 drops back into the A end zone and passes the ball to the A30 where it is intercepted by B22 who returns it for a touchdown. While the pass is in the air A55 holds B60 in the A end zone.

Ruling:

Score: A:21 – B:12. Second and 8 from the A6. A10 drops back into the A end zone and passes the ball to the A30 where it is intercepted by B22 who returns it for a touchdown. As the pass is intercepted A55 holds B60 in the A end zone

Ruling:

[cmathews]

Play # 1 Ruling: we need more information, where does the foul occur, what is the down/distance.

Play # 2 Ruling: B declines the penalty and takes the TD...My thought is that the timing of the foul before change of possession keeps the enforcement on the try out of the picture.....

[JMN]

Originally posted by chayos
K1 scrimmage kicks from the K 25 yard line. The kick is short and on a dead run to receive the kick R10 muffs it at the K37 yard line. In an attempt to fight for the ball, R45 grabs and twists K32 by the face mask. The ball rolls to the K23 yard line where it is recovered by R45.

Ruling:

PSK. If K accepts the foul, R 1/10 @ K47, snap.

Originally posted by chayos
Score: A:21 – B:12. Second and 8 from the A6. A10 drops back into the A end zone and passes the ball to the A30 where it is intercepted by B22 who returns it for a touchdown. While the pass is in the air A55 holds B60 in the A end zone.

Ruling:

B's choice. By accepting the A foul in the EZ, it's a safety and 2 points for B; A free kick and a chance to get the ball back and score again. If they decline the penalty, touchdown. B free kick.

Originally posted by chayos
Score: A:21 – B:12. Second and 8 from the A6. A10 drops back into the A end zone and passes the ball to the A30 where it is intercepted by B22 who returns it for a touchdown. As the pass is intercepted A55 holds B60 in the A end zone

Ruling:

If the possession has changed (to B) then B would decline the foul; touchdown. If possession had not occured by B, then same as previous ruling.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[cmathews]

JMN,
How did you arive at the K47? What if the foul occured at K23...The end of the Kick is K23 which is on K side of the ENZ, I agree the kick crossed the ENZ and that part of PSK is established, but the location of the foul is not established, correct me if I am wrong but a foul by R on K side of the ENZ is not PSK???

[JMN]

cmathews,

You're right, I kicked the initial enforcement.


Bad assumption on my part. Now that I look at the play again, I'm confused where the foul occurred. Chayos, at what yard line did the foul occur?

I believe that PSK is valid on this play even if the ball is recovered on K's side of the ENZ. So the issue then becomes where R committed the foul to determine the PSK spot and enforcment options.

Agree?

[chayos]

Let's just say the fould occured beyond the ENZ

[chayos]

JMN:

Regarding the two passing situations. I believe your assessment in passing situation #1 is correct. B's decision should be play or penalty.

However, situation #2, during the down there is a scoring play (the interception and return). I believe then 8-2-2 applies: The foul by the opponents of the scoring team then offers a couple of choices. Obviously they can decline the penalty or they can take the TD and have the penalty enforced at the succeeding spot, or (and this could be important is they are losing) take the penalty for the hold in the EZ and get the 2 for the safety. A would then kick from the 20 and give them the ball again.

[JMN]

Originally posted by JMN

[/B]

Thought that's what I said?

[chayos]

If they accept the penalty and the TD the enforcement is from the succeeding spot....Yes/No??

[chayos]

I too initially thought it met the criteria of PSK until I found this on the Federation website:

SITUATION 14: Team K is in a fourth-down-and-12 situation from K’s 28-yard line. K1’s punt goes beyond the expanded neutral zone and then rebounds behind the line of scrimmage where it is recovered by R7 at K’s 25-yard line. During the time the ball was beyond the expanded neutral zone, R holds K8 at K’s 42-yard line. Is this a post-scrimmage kick infraction? RULING: No. The kick ended behind the neutral zone.

http://www.nfhs.org/sports/football_interp.htm

[Theisey]

Well, it does meet all the criteria... if you only look at rule 10-4-3.
What more could we ask for... all the PSK stuff in one place. WRONG!

They added one more item to the PSK criteria list but you have to turn back to 2-16-2-g to find that last piece.

[chayos]

Theisey

You are so right...good find....and we should all learn a lesson....all good things come from Rule 2.

I commend you....

b

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by chayos
K1 scrimmage kicks from the K 25 yard line. The kick is short and on a dead run to receive the kick R10 muffs it at the K37 yard line. In an attempt to fight for the ball, R45 grabs and twists K32 by the face mask. The ball rolls to the K23 yard line where it is recovered by R45.

Ruling:

Score: A:21 – B:12. Second and 8 from the A6. A10 drops back into the A end zone and passes the ball to the A30 where it is intercepted by B22 who returns it for a touchdown. While the pass is in the air A55 holds B60 in the A end zone.

Ruling:

Score: A:21 – B:12. Second and 8 from the A6. A10 drops back into the A end zone and passes the ball to the A30 where it is intercepted by B22 who returns it for a touchdown. As the pass is intercepted A55 holds B60 in the A end zone

Ruling:

Canadian Amateur Rules:

(1) K1 has broken the continuity of downs (9-4-2e) and R10's touching makes the ball open for recovery. As for the rest, this is textbook 8-5-4c. Apply 15y UR penalty at PF, PP or PBD at K's option.

(2) B can decline the foul to allow the score, as in 8-1-4a. Since you've called A55 for a hold, Cdn officials reading this would assume that A55 is an offensive lineman, because his # is in the 40s, 50s or 60s. That being the case, I wonder what effect a hold has when the ball is already in the air. Looking at the white book, I actually failed to find a rule that allows to penalize a hold that has occured after the ball has been released. JR - what do you think? Do you think that 8-4-1a-1 applies here? If so, then B has choice: safety touch and has option to receive, kick or scrimmage the ball as in 3-3, or to have DR at the A3 (2D/11).

(3) We could have a hold, as B60 now is eligible to block for B22. Same as above.

Mike

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Aug 21st, 2003 at 11:12 AM]