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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 04, 2003, 10:48pm
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Okay, here's one for the books!

8-2-2 is a rule change for this year. However, read the 8-2-2 rule change the front of your rule book and then read 8-2-2 in the context of the rule book. The editorial committee screwed up the rule when they re-wrote it.

According to the 8-2-2 written within the rule book, the scoring team can always accept a penalty and have it penalized from the SS. But we know that in the case of a foul by the offense, a turnover and a score by the defense, the penalty must be declined for the score to stand. There was no intent to change that fundamental. But who ever put together the rule book botched it big time by writing "...a foul by the opponent of the scoring team...", instead of "...a foul by the defense...".

We were told at our state rules clinic to follow the rule as written in the front of the book, as it is correct. We were also told that there are more mistakes in this years rule and case books than there have ever been before. The editorial committe will correct this mistake in next year's book.
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Old Tue Aug 05, 2003, 09:15am
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The wording is inconsistent but personally I believe the Rule Book wording is correct..."the opponent of the scoring team."

Consider, the Case Book refers to offense as A and defense as B. Take this play, A7 throws to A89 but the pass is intercepted by B24 who returns it for a touchdown. During B24's run, A86 clipped B25.

A86 for this play is on offense. But since the turnover occurred during the play A86 converted to defending against a score, therefore, he is "the opponent of the scoring team."

Technically, A86 is on defense at the time of the foul but during the play A86 is designated as offense.
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Old Tue Aug 05, 2003, 10:13am
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A is not the offense. A is the team that snaps the ball. The designation does not change until the ready for play following a change of possession. Likewise, B is not the defense. B is the team that does not snap the ball. Their designation also does not change until the ready for play following a change of possession.

Offense is the team in possession of the ball at any given time. Defense is the team not in possession. These can change during the down. A and B cannot.
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Old Tue Aug 05, 2003, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
A is not the offense. A is the team that snaps the ball. The designation does not change until the ready for play following a change of possession. Likewise, B is not the defense. B is the team that does not snap the ball. Their designation also does not change until the ready for play following a change of possession.

Offense is the team in possession of the ball at any given time. Defense is the team not in possession. These can change during the down. A and B cannot.
Exactly my point. B could score and A would be "...opponent of the scoring team."

Read "Case Book Format" in the Foreword to the Case Book. As quoted, these do not change during a down; however, the team on offense or defense may change. Using the phrase "team on defense" becomes ambiguous but I do understand it.

Bottom line, no free shots if the other guy scores.
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Old Tue Aug 05, 2003, 11:22am
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But A would not be the defense until after the change of possession. Therefore any foul committed by A prior to the change of possession would not be by the defense.
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Old Tue Aug 05, 2003, 02:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
The wording is inconsistent but personally I believe the Rule Book wording is correct..."the opponent of the scoring team."
Nope, that doesn't work. Here's why:

Team A snaps the ball from its own 3-yard line. While A1 is attempting a pass, A10 holds B9 in the end zone. The pass is intercepted by B2 and returned for a touchdown.

If what you say were true, then B could keep the TD, accept the penalty, and have it enforced from the SS. But that would be in contradiction of 10-5-3 and 5-1-3d since the foul was by A and occurred prior to the change of possession.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
But A would not be the defense until after the change of possession. Therefore any foul committed by A prior to the change of possession would not be by the defense.
Exactly. Therefore, the wording found in the front of the book is correct, not the wording found under 8-2-2 itself.
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Old Wed Aug 06, 2003, 08:37am
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Just to clarify. I didn't make the first statement quoted in your post. Ed Hickland did. I think you and I are in agreement.
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Old Wed Aug 06, 2003, 08:56am
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A couple of effected rules

A couple of rules that are effected:

Rule 5-2-2 & 3

ART. 2 . . . When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down and before any change of team possession, and before a receiver is first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the neutral zone, the ball belongs to A after enforcement. The number of the next down is the same as that of the down during which the foul occurred unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or the enforcement or the advance results in a first down.

ART. 3 . . . When a foul occurs prior to a scrimmage down, or simultaneously with the snap, the number of the next down after enforcement is the same as the number established before the foul occurred, unless enforcement for a foul by B results in a first down.

FUND II.3 - If R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, a new series will be awarded the team in possession at end of the down, unless there was a foul before the kick crossed the expanded neutral zone and the penalty was accepted, or there was a double foul or there was an inadvertent whistle during the kick following the touching by R.
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Old Wed Aug 06, 2003, 09:13am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
Just to clarify. I didn't make the first statement quoted in your post. Ed Hickland did. I think you and I are in agreement.
Yep, we're in agreement. My first reply was in response to Ed's post.

Your reply was correct in that A and B do not change during a down but offense and defense can.

TBone is also correct and he can include 10-5-3 and 5-1-3d as being effected as well. All of these rules make "opponent of the scoring team" not work.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2004, 10:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
The editorial committe will correct this mistake in next year's book.
And, they did.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 23, 2004, 11:59pm
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Post Here is the new wording for 8-2-2 from the Rules committee

Here is what voted on and approved by the Rules Committee for 2004 in the January meeting in Phoenix. It was item #65 of proposed rule changes for 2004. The proposal passed by a vote of 50-0-1.
The question on the ballot written was as follows:

Rule 8-2-2
If during a touchdown-scoring play, a foul by the opponents of the scoring team occurs on a play where there is no change of possession; or a foul by the opponents of the scoring team occurs after the change of possession if there is a change of possession, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot.
Rationale:
Literal wording of 10-5-3 appears to contradict last years rule change of 8-2-2. The problem is compounded when the foul by the opponent occurs on a play where there has been a cange of possession. The spirit and intent of the 2003 rules change appears to call for an-revision of RUle 8-2-2 as printed, to specifiy the following from this point forward the penalty has to occur after the change of possession to allow B options of carrying to the try. It is necessary to revise the rule in order to make a distinion between plays where a change of possession has occured.

Bottom line - Fouls that occur before the change of possession will be have to be declined in order to keep the score, while fouls that occur after the change of possession may be accepted and enforced on the try.
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