5 and 15 in NFHS

[FredFan7]

4th and 10 for team A at team B's 30. Linebacker B50 anticipates the snap of the ball, but encroaches, and leaps across the neutral zone and tackles Quarterback A14 by a) wrapping him up by the chest or b) wrapping him up by the helmet and grasping the helmet opening. What's your call? Situation B actually happend to us this last season. I was the U.

[Edited by FredFan7 on Jan 21st, 2004 at 10:44 AM]

[cmathews]

IMHO, I go with the 5 yd encroachment. That is assuming that B isn't malicious in his tackle. IF he is we are going to also have a dead ball USC and instead of 5 or 15 it will be 5 and 15

[ABoselli]

I'm assuming he was not in the NZ before the snap if he 'anticipated' it. Therefore, situation a is too bad for A, B takes over at the dead ball spot. Situation b is too bad for B, 1st and 10 for A at B's 15.

Let me know if my assumption is wrong - assumption makes an *** of you and umption.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by cmathews
IMHO, I go with the 5 yd encroachment. That is assuming that B isn't malicious in his tackle. IF he is we are going to also have a dead ball USC and instead of 5 or 15 it will be 5 and 15

REPLY: Since the face mask offense by B50 involved contact, it could never be a USC foul. It would be have to be a personal foul.

[FredFan7]

To clarify:

There was no snap. A14 barked "Hut" (no head bob) and B50 sailed over the neutral zone and tackled A14.

[JMN]

My ruling:

a) I've got deadball, offsides by B. Assuming that the contact on the QB was non-flagrant. 5yd penalty. A 4/5 @ B25

b) Deadball, offsides by B AND a 5 yard facemask penalty, again assuming that the contact was non-flagrant. A 4/inches @ B20 or A 1/10 @ B20 depending on the spot.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Since the face mask offense by B50 involved contact, it could never be a USC foul. It would be have to be a personal foul.

Yep my bad Thanks for the correction Bob

[Snake~eyes]

I agree. Like Bob said, it would be a personal foul, USCs are noncontact only! Please don't make that mistake.

[cmathews]

well if I only had my rule book with me on the field we would be ok

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by cmathews
well if I only had my rule book with me on the field we would be ok

Your not in OHIO anymore Toto.......you beat me to the comment.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by cmathews
well if I only had my rule book with me on the field we would be ok

Your not in OHIO anymore Toto.......you beat me to the comment.

I agree with the above posts.

[KWH]

Originally posted by JMN
My ruling:

a) I've got deadball, offsides by B. Assuming that the contact on the QB was non-flagrant. 5yd penalty. A 4/5 @ B25

b) Deadball, offsides by B AND a 5 yard facemask penalty, again assuming that the contact was non-flagrant. A 4/inches @ B20 or A 1/10 @ B20 depending on the spot.

JMN - "Offside" can NEVER occur under Federation Rules!
Encroachment is the proper penalty under federation rules! Offside is a live ball foul by the defense under NCAA rules only. Neither the word "offside" nor "offsides" appear in any NFHS publications, (exception, under signal 18 on page 80 of the 2003 rules for you trivia buffs.)

While I would never support carrying a rule book on the field during a game, I think you and cmatthews should consider doing a little post season rules reading and study group activity!

[cmathews]

Originally posted by KWH

JMN - "Offside" can NEVER occur under Federation Rules!
Encroachment is the proper penalty under federation rules! Offside is a live ball foul by the defense under NCAA rules only. Neither the word "offside" nor "offsides" appear in any NFHS publications, (exception, under signal 18 on page 80 of the 2003 rules for you trivia buffs.)

While I would never support carrying a rule book on the field during a game, I think you and cmatthews should consider doing a little post season rules reading and study group activity!

And you should consult the previous posts for correct spelling....Aside from semantics, which I agree I misspoke, what is the discernable difference between Dead Ball USC and Dead Ball Personal foul penalties and enforcements??

[KWH]

Originally posted by cmathews
[QUOTE
...what is the discernable difference between Dead Ball USC and Dead Ball Personal foul penalties and enforcements??

Well Mr. Mathews since you asked;

1a) UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT FOULS ARE ALWAYS, NON-CONTACT FOULS!

1b) PERSONAL FOULS ALWAYS (with 1 exception*) INVOLVE SOME TYPE OF CONTACT with an opponent!

*If you take a swing at an opponent and miss, or kick at an opponent and miss. While no contact is made it is considered a personal foul. The player is also disqualified!

2a) If you recieve two personal fouls you may be allowed to continue to participate!

2b) If you recieve two USC's you are by rule disqualified!

I might also suggest reading Rule 9 where all of this is spelled out. While some newer officials seem to think they can decide on their own whether an act is a PF or an USC this is not the case as most of the common acts that occur are listed in Rule 9, but also remember the deciding factor is:
Contact = Personal Foul
Non-contact = Unspotsmanlike .

I hope this helps...

[Edited by KWH on Jan 21st, 2004 at 06:47 PM]

[cmathews]

KWH,
Thanks so much for your eloquent explanation. If you had checked above you would note that I had already acknowledged the mistake after it was politely pointed out to me. My point in asking you the difference was they are both 15 yds from the succeeding spot. So the enforcement aspects aren't that critical. I am not exactly sure what makes you think I am a newer official and I don't really care, you can either jump down my throat or misspell my name not both. I am fully aware of the differences, I just misspoke because frankly I am doing my in season basketball rules study, so take a chill pill and put on a happy face

[Edited by cmathews on Jan 21st, 2004 at 05:59 PM]