Job Of Ump & Ref

[mrerrl]

Do you think it is the job of the ump and ref to call not enough players on LOS of offense.

[BktBallRef]

Normally the wings would get this. But I'm not going to let the crew miss it just because the right official doesn't throw the flag.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mrerrl

Do you think it is the job of the ump and ref to call not enough players on LOS of offense.

Your sentence structure has me confused. So I'll just say - I don't want the R or U making this call.

However, when it's obvious and the wings are sleeping, I have no problem with one of them getting it. Save the crew...

[stevegarbs]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Your sentence structure has me confused. So I'll just say - I don't want the R or U making this call.

However, when it's obvious and the wings are sleeping, I have no problem with one of them getting it. Save the crew...

It is incumbent upon the R and U to hold their count signal long enough for the wings to pick up that A indeed has 11 players on the field.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by stevegarbs

It is incumbent upon the R and U to hold their count signal long enough for the wings to pick up that A indeed has 11 players on the field.

Not on a good crew. HL and LJ should be able to count 7 regardless of what R and U have. Look at the center, count how many are on the line on your side of the center and signal that to your partner. If the total is 6 (plus the center making 7), you're good. if it's too many, you're still good. Light? You should BOTH have a flag.

I've worked on crews that rely on R's count and then counting the backfield --- they miss far too many of these, and also are not really ready when the play starts more often than not.

[JRutledge]

I do not know how the U or R has any responsibility for this other then giving the wings a proper count? They do not have the angle to know who is or who is actually not on the line.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know how the U or R has any responsibility for this other then giving the wings a proper count? They do not have the angle to know who is or who is actually not on the line.

Peace

I agree... the only time I want to see my R call this is when working a 3 man crew and someone on the wings is new. And then only if he's SURE he has 11 on the field and SURE he has 5 in the backfield.

[Rich]

I've picked up illegal formation fouls on field goal attempts and PATs as the referee. I realize that the wing holding the line should get these, but again, I'm not going to miss this as a crew because a wing misses this.

[Tom.OH]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not on a good crew. HL and LJ should be able to count 7 regardless of what R and U have. Look at the center, count how many are on the line on your side of the center and signal that to your partner. If the total is 6 (plus the center making 7), you're good. if it's too many, you're still good. Light? You should BOTH have a flag.

I've worked on crews that rely on R's count and then counting the backfield --- they miss far too many of these, and also are not really ready when the play starts more often than not.

I have subbed on crews that counted the backs and it was a pain. Sometimes I would think the wideout on the far side was off the line, I threw my flag and after the play the other wing said he had him on.

[bcl1127]

Originally Posted by Tom.OH

I have subbed on crews that counted the backs and it was a pain. Sometimes I would think the wideout on the far side was off the line, I threw my flag and after the play the other wing said he had him on.

This is where good cross field communication comes into play. The two wings should have signals that let the other know is the player across is on or off the line. That way these issues do not arise. We were taught and still use the "punch back" if the wideout is off the line, if there are two off on my side, I am punching with two fingers extended to let my partner know.

As for the original post, no way a U or R should be making this call, they have no angle to see if someone is on the line, off the line, or in that no mans land. This is the wings responsibility.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bcl1127

This is where good cross field communication comes into play. The two wings should have signals that let the other know is the player across is on or off the line. That way these issues do not arise. We were taught and still use the "punch back" if the wideout is off the line, if there are two off on my side, I am punching with two fingers extended to let my partner know.

As for the original post, no way a U or R should be making this call, they have no angle to see if someone is on the line, off the line, or in that no mans land. This is the wings responsibility.

I've worked with crews that punch back or signal on as well. Why. Why would the guy on the other side of me care if the guy closest to me is on or off ... all he should care about from my side is how many. All I care about on his side is how many. 3 + 3 or 4+2 is six, regardless of whether or not the guy closest to me is one of my 2 or 3 or 4.

On/Off works best when R is responsible (perhaps a 3 man crew) since R is counting backs and can't tell if your guy is on or off. But this is truly the weaker way to do it.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not on a good crew. HL and LJ should be able to count 7 regardless of what R and U have. Look at the center, count how many are on the line on your side of the center and signal that to your partner. If the total is 6 (plus the center making 7), you're good. if it's too many, you're still good. Light? You should BOTH have a flag.

I've worked on crews that rely on R's count and then counting the backfield --- they miss far too many of these, and also are not really ready when the play starts more often than not.

For us I think it is easier and more mechanically correct to count the backs. We don't need to know that the offense has 11 as long as there are no more than 4 backs. That said we should still be counting our team's sideline as a wing.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I've worked with crews that punch back or signal on as well. Why. Why would the guy on the other side of me care if the guy closest to me is on or off ... all he should care about from my side is how many. All I care about on his side is how many. 3 + 3 or 4+2 is six, regardless of whether or not the guy closest to me is one of my 2 or 3 or 4.

On/Off works best when R is responsible (perhaps a 3 man crew) since R is counting backs and can't tell if your guy is on or off. But this is truly the weaker way to do it.

I feel it is significantly easier to count the number of backs than the number of linemen. Since they are often in a straight line from the wing it can be tricky to count them. 99% of the time the offense has 11 so don't get hung up on the R's signal. If they have 10 or fewer they are going to hold the signal much longer anyway. This is an odd penalty for A anyway since they are at a disadvantage if they have 10 players with 4 backs. I much prefer the NCAA rule for this reason.

[LeRoy]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Your sentence structure has me confused. So I'll just say - I don't want the R or U making this call.

However, when it's obvious and the wings are sleeping, I have no problem with one of them getting it. Save the crew...

I agree !!!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I feel it is significantly easier to count the number of backs than the number of linemen. Since they are often in a straight line from the wing it can be tricky to count them. 99% of the time the offense has 11 so don't get hung up on the R's signal. If they have 10 or fewer they are going to hold the signal much longer anyway. This is an odd penalty for A anyway since they are at a disadvantage if they have 10 players with 4 backs. I much prefer the NCAA rule for this reason.

Me too. I should add this to "stupid rules." It's essentially a rule for playing with 10 players (instead of 11).