First touching/ IW

[RadioBlue]

Wow. This one has made me put my thinking cap on. But I'm going to say that since it is still a kick and therefore still a loose ball with an IW, you've gotta replay the down.

[maven]

Hole in the rules: it's unclear whether IW trumps first touching or vice versa.

The case for going with the IW: the IW clearly happens during a loose ball, since the touching does not constitute possession. By rule, replay the down.

The case for going with first touching: 2-16-6 says:

"Game situations which produce results somewhat similar to penalties,
but which are not classified as fouls are: disqualification of a player, first
touching of a kick by K and forfeiture of a game."

So we treat first touching like an accepted penalty, specifically by disregarding the IW, and go with first touching.

Pick 'em.

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by maven

Hole in the rules: it's unclear whether IW trumps first touching or vice versa.

The case for going with the IW: the IW clearly happens during a loose ball, since the touching does not constitute possession. By rule, replay the down.

The case for going with first touching: 2-16-6 says:

"Game situations which produce results somewhat similar to penalties,
but which are not classified as fouls are: disqualification of a player, first
touching of a kick by K and forfeiture of a game."

So we treat first touching like an accepted penalty, specifically by disregarding the IW, and go with first touching.

Pick 'em.

Is this an accepted federation interpretation, or is this yours?

[MD Longhorn]

The times when we replay the down include any time where it's not clear who was disadvantaged by the IW - including most COP and loose ball plays. Given that on this play you do not know which team was disadvantaged by the early killing of the play, I'd go with replaying the down.

[legend]

Just had a sub varsity game on Monday night and the wing guy opposite of me (4 man crew) had an IW during the onside kick attempt, here is the play.

K attempts an onside kick, the ball travels roughly 7 yards where R attempts to field the ball (which had been grounded). The ball bounces off of the R players knee and is laying loose on the field when the wing guy (who was obstructed by the scrum of players) blows the whistle assuming that R had successfully gained possossion of the ball. We had a rekick in this situation, which sucked because K recovered the original onside kick, down 6 with 1:30 left in the game.

[maven]

Originally Posted by legend

K attempts an onside kick, the ball travels roughly 7 yards where R attempts to field the ball (which had been grounded). The ball bounces off of the R players knee and is laying loose on the field when the wing guy (who was obstructed by the scrum of players) blows the whistle assuming that R had successfully gained possossion of the ball. We had a rekick in this situation, which sucked because K recovered the original onside kick, down 6 with 1:30 left in the game.

Good job replaying the down: clearly the correct call here.

You can console yourself with this thought: K did NOT recover the original onside kick. They merely helped you pick up a dead ball!

And I apologize for 3 posts in a row.

[maven]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The times when we replay the down include any time where it's not clear who was disadvantaged by the IW - including most COP and loose ball plays. Given that on this play you do not know which team was disadvantaged by the early killing of the play, I'd go with replaying the down.

As a general principle, that's pretty good. But in case of an accepted penalty, nobody's disadvantaged by the IW, which by your principle explains why we go with the penalty (so far so good!).

But if we treat first touching as akin to a penalty, that would still permit us to negate the IW, and for the same reason, right?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by maven

As a general principle, that's pretty good. But in case of an accepted penalty, nobody's disadvantaged by the IW, which by your principle explains why we go with the penalty (so far so good!).

But if we treat first touching as akin to a penalty, that would still permit us to negate the IW, and for the same reason, right?

No, I don't think so.

With the penalty, everything that happens afterward ends up being disregarded anyway. (If the penalty is declined, you're back to replaying due to the IW)

With first touching, you have no idea whether the "zero yard penalty" will be accepted.

I suppose a "fair" way of navigating this would be to let the receiving team decide if they want to accept the first touching, or replay the down. I can see both sides of this.

[maven]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I suppose a "fair" way of navigating this would be to let the receiving team decide if they want to accept the first touching, or replay the down. I can see both sides of this.

Originally Posted by CT1

I'd give R a choice -- take the ball at the FT spot, or rekick.

I smell developing consensus!

Somebody call NFHS...

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No, I don't think so.

With the penalty, everything that happens afterward ends up being disregarded anyway. (If the penalty is declined, you're back to replaying due to the IW)

With first touching, you have no idea whether the "zero yard penalty" will be accepted.

I suppose a "fair" way of navigating this would be to let the receiving team decide if they want to accept the first touching, or replay the down. I can see both sides of this.

Sometimes the choice would be obvious. If K first touches their free kick in the neutral zone, what is to be gained by R in replaying the down, assuming rational decisions by both sides?

OK, I suppose if K's kicker is really, really weak and has trouble getting the ball to go any distance at all, R might decline a spot of touching by K 9 yards into the NZ in the hope that his next kick won't even go that far.

[maven]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

Is this an accepted federation interpretation, or is this yours?

I gave you two incompatible interps, one for going with the IW, one for going with first touching.

NFHS can be inconsistent, but they're not THAT bad!