NCAA & FED

[JMN]

In an effort to clarify (or further confuse) some of the rule differences between the codes, consider the following plays. NCAA & FED rulings on the following including options, penalty enforcement, timing:

1. Free kick from K35. The ball is kicked in the air to the K 47 where K33 catches the ball runs to the R45 and is tackled by R52. No R player was in position to catch the kick. What do you have?

2. A's ball, 2/10 @ A40. A11 rolls to the right side and throws a legal forward pass downfield that is intercepted by B21 on the B30. A11's momentum carries him out of bounds. He immediately returns to the field of play and makes the touchdown-saving tackle on B30. What do you have?

3. A's ball, 3/5 @ A25. A12 from a shotgun. As the defense puts pressure on him, he rolls deep to his right. From the A10 and more than 5 yds towards the sideline from where the ball was snapped, A12 throws the ball forward to avoid losing yards. The ball hits the ground at the A20 and there aren't any A players in the area. What do you have?

4. A's ball, 1/10 @ A25. At the B30 as receiver A21 and defender B16 both play the ball, A21 pushes B30 just before the ball arrives and makes a catch. A21 runs the ball into the endzone for a touchdown. What do you have?

5. On a PAT, A's kick is blocked by B. B13 recovers the kick a)behind, b)not behind the LOS and returns the ball for a score. What do you have?

[mikesears]

Originally posted by JMN
In an effort to clarify (or further confuse) some of the rule differences between the codes, consider the following plays. NCAA & FED rulings on the following including options, penalty enforcement, timing:

I can only answer these according the FED rules so I'm giving these a shot from this perspective.


1. Free kick from K35. The ball is kicked in the air to the K 47 where K33 catches the ball runs to the R45 and is tackled by R52. No R player was in position to catch the kick. What do you have?

Once K has touched the ball before it is grounded, there is a foul for kick-catching inteference. Once K has possessed the ball, the down is over and the ball becomes dead. K's advance is meaningless (unless you really want to get picky and flag him for delay of game). Here are R's options:

1. R can have K's penalty enforced from the K-35 and K will rekick a free-kick from the K-20. Clock won't start until the ball is touched by R or legally touched by K.


2. R can take the ball at the spot of the inteference (the K-47) and elect to free kick for a field goal (same clock scenario as above) or snap (clock on the snap).

2. A's ball, 2/10 @ A40. A11 rolls to the right side and throws a legal forward pass downfield that is intercepted by B21 on the B30. A11's momentum carries him out of bounds. He immediately returns to the field of play and makes the touchdown-saving tackle on B30. What do you have?

Depends. When does A11 return inbounds? Before or after the INT? If after the INT, it is nothing. If before the INT, it is illegal participation. B will probably decline the penalty and keep the ball. If B doesn't decline the ball, A will get it for a 2/25 at the A-25. Clock starts on the ready of B30 is tackled inbounds. It starts on the snap if B30 is forced OOB.


3. A's ball, 3/5 @ A25. A12 from a shotgun. As the defense puts pressure on him, he rolls deep to his right. From the A10 and more than 5 yds towards the sideline from where the ball was snapped, A12 throws the ball forward to avoid losing yards. The ball hits the ground at the A20 and there aren't any A players in the area. What do you have?

Illegal forward pass. B will undoubtably take the penalty. A loses right to replay down. 4/25 @ A-5. The spot of enforcement for THIS penalty is the end of the run because it is considered a running play. It was not a legal forward pass. Clock starts on the snap.


4. A's ball, 1/10 @ A25. At the B30 as receiver A21 and defender B16 both play the ball, A21 pushes B30 just before the ball arrives and makes a catch. A21 runs the ball into the endzone for a touchdown. What do you have?

If A21 was pushing to gain an advantage, we have OPI. 2/22.5 @ A12.5 (clock on snap). If both players were making a bona fide attempt to move toward, catch, or bat the pass, it is nothing and team A is awarded the touchdown.


5. On a PAT, A's kick is blocked by B. B13 recovers the kick a)behind, b)not behind the LOS and returns the ball for a score. What do you have?

Nothing. Ball is dead when kick fails.

[James Neil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by JMN
2. A's ball, 2/10 @ A40. A11 rolls to the right side and throws a legal forward pass downfield that is intercepted by B21 on the B30. A11's momentum carries him out of bounds. He immediately returns to the field of play and makes the touchdown-saving tackle on B30. What do you have?

Depends. Clock starts on the ready of B30 is tackled inbounds. It starts on the snap if B30 is forced OOB.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
Hasn't B been awared a new series ? Clock will be on the snap in either case .

[mikesears]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by James Neil
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears

Originally posted by JMN
2. A's ball, 2/10 @ A40. A11 rolls to the right side and throws a legal forward pass downfield that is intercepted by B21 on the B30. A11's momentum carries him out of bounds. He immediately returns to the field of play and makes the touchdown-saving tackle on B30. What do you have?

Depends. Clock starts on the ready of B30 is tackled inbounds. It starts on the snap if B30 is forced OOB.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
Hasn't B been awared a new series ? Clock will be on the snap in either case .

Depends upon what B does if their is a foul. If B accepts the penalty (DUMB MOVE), B is not awarded a new series (and A will keep the ball). If B declines the penalty, it will start on the snap because they WERE awarded a new series. After reading my original post, I didn't state it this way. My bad!

[JMN]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears

3. A's ball, 3/5 @ A25. A12 from a shotgun. As the defense puts pressure on him, he rolls deep to his right. From the A10 and more than 5 yds towards the sideline from where the ball was snapped, A12 throws the ball forward to avoid losing yards. The ball hits the ground at the A20 and there aren't any A players in the area. What do you have?

Illegal forward pass. B will undoubtably take the penalty. A loses right to replay down. 4/25 @ A-5. The spot of enforcement for THIS penalty is the end of the run because it is considered a running play. It was not a legal forward pass. Clock starts on the snap.

Mike, good job on the FED ruling.
Could this be intentional grounding? Why would you rule illegal forward pass vs. intentional grounding?

[mikesears]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JMN

Originally posted by mikesears

3. A's ball, 3/5 @ A25. A12 from a shotgun. As the defense puts pressure on him, he rolls deep to his right. From the A10 and more than 5 yds towards the sideline from where the ball was snapped, A12 throws the ball forward to avoid losing yards. The ball hits the ground at the A20 and there aren't any A players in the area. What do you have?

Illegal forward pass. B will undoubtably take the penalty. A loses right to replay down. 4/25 @ A-5. The spot of enforcement for THIS penalty is the end of the run because it is considered a running play. It was not a legal forward pass. Clock starts on the snap.

Mike, good job on the FED ruling.
Could this be intentional grounding? Why would you rule illegal forward pass vs. intentional grounding?

Technically, intentional grounding is classified as one of the four types of illegal forward passes. But I'd definitely signal Intentional grounding to the press box if I was the R.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Answer to #1 originally posted by mikesears

Once K has touched the ball before it is grounded, there is a foul for kick-catching inteference.

Mike- this isn't a foul by K if there is no R player in position to catch the ball. It's the exception to 6-5-6.

The only foul on this play is perhaps delay of game.

[JMN]

Andrew,

I think that Mike is correct since this was a FREE KICK. Whether or not R was in position to catch the ball is not relevant for a free kick. Under FED rules, I believe that K is prohibited from catching a FREE KICK, otherwise KCI.

Your interpretation is correct for a SCRIMMAGE KICK where there is not an R receiver in position to catch the ball.

Anyone have the NCAA interpretations of these plays?

[James Neil]

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy

Mike- this isn't a foul by K if there is no R player in position to catch the ball. It's the exception to 6-5-6.

The only foul on this play is perhaps delay of game.

Mike and JMN are correct on this one AM. The exception to 6-5-6 says "K may catch , touch, muff or bat a SCRIMMAGE KICK (caps are mine)in flight beyond the NZ if no player of R is in position to catch the ball" . The only time a K player may catch a free-kick is if R first touches the ball.

[Bob M.]

It appears that the original list of plays was intended for NCAA rules interps since in #1 the free kick occurs from A's 35. So let's take that play...

In NCAA rules, A (or K) is allowed to touch a free kick if any of the following three things occur:
1. The kick touches a team R player (just like FED)
2. After it breaks the plane of team R's restraining line and stays there (provided in so doing K does not interfere with a team R player's attempt to catch the kick)
3. After it toouches any player, official, or the ground beyond team R's restraining line.

However, just like in FED rules, the ball is dead when K catches or recovers it.

So in play #1, K33's catch of the kick is legal and the ball becomes dead at K's 47. Result--> K, 1/10 @ K's 47. Now if the covering official did his job and blew it dead and K deliberately advanced the dead ball, he could be ruled guilty of delay of game. Likewise, the subsequent tackle by R52 would then be ruled a personal foul. If my arithmetic is correct, this would result in K's ball 1/10 @ R's 43.

[JMN]

Originally posted by Bob M.


In NCAA rules, A (or K) is allowed to touch a free kick if any of the following three things occur:
1. The kick touches a team R player (just like FED)
2. After it breaks the plane of team R's restraining line and stays there (provided in so doing K does not interfere with a team R player's attempt to catch the kick)
3. After it toouches any player, official, or the ground beyond team R's restraining line.

Bob, thanks for your post.

So the key difference between FED and NCAA on a free kick in flight beyond R's restraining line (and stays beyond) is that under NCAA rules, K can catch the ball without penalty and keep it.

Under FED rules, catching the ball would be KCI. In order for K to gain possession, one of the following must occur; the ball touches an R player or touches the ground and clears R's restraining line.

Bob, can you provide your interpretations on the remaining plays?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by JMN


Bob, thanks for your post.

So the key difference between FED and NCAA on a free kick in flight beyond R's restraining line (and stays beyond) is that under NCAA rules, K can catch the ball without penalty and keep it. CORRECT...as long as there is no team R player in position to catch it.

Under FED rules, catching the ball would be KCI. In order for K to gain possession, one of the following must occur; the ball touches an R player or touches the ground and clears R's restraining line. CORRECT again

Bob, can you provide your interpretations on the remaining plays?

For what it's worth, here's my NCAA take on the remaining plays:

(2.) I have nothing except a good tackle by A11 (after an equally bad pass!!)

(3.) Illegal forward pass since the pass did not cross the NZ. 5 yards from the spot of the pass and LOD --> A, 4/25 @ A's 5

(4.) OPI. No LOD in NCAA, therefore A, 1/22.5 @ A's 12.5

(5a.) B has the opportunity to advance for a score until the ball becomes dead by rule.

(5b.) same as 5a.