The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 10:57am
big jake
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Tennessee---Vandy Whistle or not

What in the world happened in this game? Was this the crew that got in trouble in the SEC a couple of years ago? It looked real bad on the tube.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 11:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,153
Tennessee vs Vandy whistle ? - YouTube
__________________
When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my azz!
Bobby Knight
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 11:42am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
What a mess.

The white hat should've known this wasn't reviewable. The HL should've owned up to his IW (or if you want to call it a mistaken notion that the runner was down, so be it).

The guy in the booth, supposedly, has no audio of the game. It's merely a visual replay -- so if the R didn't tell the booth that the whistle had blown, he's going to review the play assuming a whistle hadn't blown.

Clearly, the whistle had blown.

I hate IWs. Nothing good comes from them. I hate people trying to cover up IWs more. I'm a white hat on Friday nights and I've told my view time and time again that they need to own up to an IW and we have rules to deal with it. Nothing good comes from not having the stones/integrity to face up to it.

(We've had one IW in 6 years on the crew and I had to drag that information out of the LJ who did it. I heard it, it's obvious others did, too. This prompted another discussion on IWs and owning up to them. To be fair to this guy, it was his first *ever* IW and he was a bit stunned by it and the aftermath.)
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 12:35pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
This whole mess started with bad mechanics by the H. I will assume that NCAA keys have him taking the 2nd receiver.

At the snap, he moves immediately downfield. However, this places you out of position when players need to "come back to the ball". At the time of the INT, he was actually closer to the B GL and than the players were. As such, he was not in position to see a bobble that may have taken place, and he was straight-lined in respect to the player's knees.

If he read the play better, he would have held the LS, or at least vacate the LS at a slow rate. Then, he would have seen the action from between the LS and the INT, and he would have properly seen that no knee touched the ground.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 12:46pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Some harsh words from Pereira.


Pereira: Week 12 CFB call
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 12:58pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
ESPN website clip: Tennessee vs Vanderbilt Highlight - ESPN Video - ESPN
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 02:07pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
What a mess.

The white hat should've known this wasn't reviewable. The HL should've owned up to his IW (or if you want to call it a mistaken notion that the runner was down, so be it).

The guy in the booth, supposedly, has no audio of the game. It's merely a visual replay -- so if the R didn't tell the booth that the whistle had blown, he's going to review the play assuming a whistle hadn't blown.

Clearly, the whistle had blown.
Is it possible that the other officials did not know it was an IW? I am not sure how that would be the case, but is it just possible that he ruled a downed player and did not know he was totally and completely wrong at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
This whole mess started with bad mechanics by the H. I will assume that NCAA keys have him taking the 2nd receiver.
Keys have nothing to do with this play. You only follow your key for a moment and once the ball is thrown you are ruling on many things, not just your key. And with this being an interception, he should have gotten off that key long before this play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
At the snap, he moves immediately downfield. However, this places you out of position when players need to "come back to the ball". At the time of the INT, he was actually closer to the B GL and than the players were. As such, he was not in position to see a bobble that may have taken place, and he was straight-lined in respect to the player's knees.
This is also not the mechanic, you hold and flow for a short wing. You have forward progress, but you also have to make sure the ball has crossed the LOS or the pass based on many actions. He just missed it and should have gotten help from other officials. The deep wings, umpire and even Referee in some cases could have seen the knee down and she should not have assumed which is what I feel this official did and blew the whistle.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 02:15pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Is it possible that the other officials did not know it was an IW? I am not sure how that would be the case, but is it just possible that he ruled a downed player and did not know he was totally and completely wrong at the time.
It's irrelevant whether it's called an IW or whether it's called a missed judgment. The HL signaled and blew his whistle. The play is over.

The HL should've said to the WH -- "I blew my whistle. I signaled. I ruled him down."

If he had done that, I can't *imagine* the WH would go on the microphone and say there was no signal or whistle. The WH may not have heard the whistle or seen the signal and was relying on his guys to tell him what actually happened.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 03:03pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
It's irrelevant whether it's called an IW or whether it's called a missed judgment. The HL signaled and blew his whistle. The play is over.

The HL should've said to the WH -- "I blew my whistle. I signaled. I ruled him down."

If he had done that, I can't *imagine* the WH would go on the microphone and say there was no signal or whistle. The WH may not have heard the whistle or seen the signal and was relying on his guys to tell him what actually happened.
You are right Rich. I was dealing with more with what that official believed at the time. I had a rather big time game that was on TV once where a partner ruled a player down on a fumble and we treated it as a player down and not an IW. Unfortunately no one could help him at the time. But it showed up on tape. What they ended up doing in this SEC game was totally wrong.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 04:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 218
This actually raises kind of an interesting issue.

When does bad judgement become an IW, by rule?

I mean, if it is a close play, and I judge that the runner is down and blow my whistle, how is that different (if at all) from an IW?

After all, I judged that the runner was down, so it isn't really IW, right? It might be wrong, but that is different (I think) from me seeing a player go down, blow my whistle, and THEN realize that player doesn't even have the ball (for example). In that case, it is clearly an IW, and hence the IW rules should be applied, as opposed to just saying the play is over...right?

I guess what I am getting at is that this isn't necessarily a IW at all - the covering official thought the runner was down. He was wrong of course, but then, officials are wrong sometimes. Sometimes we think the runner stepped out when they did not, that isn't an IW, right? Sometimes we think the pass was incomplete when it isn't, that isn't an IW either. Nobody is going to get the chance to replay the down when the wing guy says the runner stepped OOB even if they did not.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 05:11pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
This actually raises kind of an interesting issue.

When does bad judgement become an IW, by rule?

I mean, if it is a close play, and I judge that the runner is down and blow my whistle, how is that different (if at all) from an IW?
You are right, it isn't that different. But in this case they should not have allowed a score and the down, "inning" or overtime was over at that point the official blew the whistle.

After all, I judged that the runner was down, so it isn't really IW, right? It might be wrong, but that is different (I think) from me seeing a player go down, blow my whistle, and THEN realize that player doesn't even have the ball (for example). In that case, it is clearly an IW, and hence the IW rules should be applied, as opposed to just saying the play is over...right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
I guess what I am getting at is that this isn't necessarily a IW at all - the covering official thought the runner was down. He was wrong of course, but then, officials are wrong sometimes. Sometimes we think the runner stepped out when they did not, that isn't an IW, right? Sometimes we think the pass was incomplete when it isn't, that isn't an IW either. Nobody is going to get the chance to replay the down when the wing guy says the runner stepped OOB even if they did not.
It is still an IW, but a player not having the ball and a player with possession are going to be handled differently by rule.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 06:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 218
Actually, by NCAA rule, there is no difference between a player with or without the ball when it comes to IW. The rule doesn't even mention a fumble, except when discussing one of the cases that determine options.

As far as the NCAA rules are concerned, I actually think this *IS* an IW. And I think someone calling someone OOB who was not could also be an IW, by rule. Although I would guess in a practical sense, it doesn't come up often.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 21, 2011, 09:29pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Is it possible that the other officials did not know it was an IW? I am not sure how that would be the case, but is it just possible that he ruled a downed player and did not know he was totally and completely wrong at the time.



Keys have nothing to do with this play. You only follow your key for a moment and once the ball is thrown you are ruling on many things, not just your key. And with this being an interception, he should have gotten off that key long before this play.




This is also not the mechanic, you hold and flow for a short wing. You have forward progress, but you also have to make sure the ball has crossed the LOS or the pass based on many actions. He just missed it and should have gotten help from other officials. The deep wings, umpire and even Referee in some cases could have seen the knee down and she should not have assumed which is what I feel this official did and blew the whistle.

Peace
Rut, the exact same play just happened in the MN game.

What did the wing official do? He BACKED UP from the LS, rather than going downfield!

And guess what? He had a great look on the play.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 22, 2011, 12:36am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
Rut, the exact same play just happened in the MN game.

What did the wing official do? He BACKED UP from the LS, rather than going downfield!

And guess what? He had a great look on the play.
I was telling you the mechanic, not debating what officials actually do.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 22, 2011, 04:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
This actually raises kind of an interesting issue.

When does bad judgement become an IW, by rule?

I mean, if it is a close play, and I judge that the runner is down and blow my whistle, how is that different (if at all) from an IW?

After all, I judged that the runner was down, so it isn't really IW, right? It might be wrong, but that is different (I think) from me seeing a player go down, blow my whistle, and THEN realize that player doesn't even have the ball (for example). In that case, it is clearly an IW, and hence the IW rules should be applied, as opposed to just saying the play is over...right?

I guess what I am getting at is that this isn't necessarily a IW at all - the covering official thought the runner was down. He was wrong of course, but then, officials are wrong sometimes. Sometimes we think the runner stepped out when they did not, that isn't an IW, right? Sometimes we think the pass was incomplete when it isn't, that isn't an IW either. Nobody is going to get the chance to replay the down when the wing guy says the runner stepped OOB even if they did not.
I think it only becomes an IW if someone (i.e. the U) comes to him with absolutely certainty the knee wasn't down and the H decides he was correct. Or the R takes information from both officials and determines the U was correct. Then the ruling of the runner being down is treated as an IW. This would give the team in possession (UT in this case) the option of replaying the down or taking the ball at the spot where the runner was incorrectly ruled down. They would not give the ball back to Vandy so an IW and ruling the runner was down would have the same outcome.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CWS - Plate Ump @ Vandy v. Florida MikeStrybel Baseball 21 Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:24pm
Tenn vs Vandy grunewar Basketball 12 Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:01am
BC vs. Vandy muffed punt yankeesfan Football 16 Sun Jan 04, 2009 03:53pm
Tenn-Vandy FT bucblue Basketball 13 Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:02am
Incredible ending!!!!!!!! Vandy/WSU Nevadaref Basketball 9 Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:45am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:27pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1