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Patton Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:59am

NFHS - Rule 5-1-2(a)
 
A 2/10 @ A5. Sweep to the sideline for no gain. After the play, each team is called for a personal foul with B's foul clearly occuring first. What is the down and distance of the next play?

KS_Blue Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:06pm

Enforce penalty in the order they happen.

15 yards against B takes it to the 20. First down for A. Then March off half the distance to the goal against A. Set the chains with 1/10 for A at their own 10.

cmathews Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:06pm

1 & 10 @a10

Patton Tue Sep 13, 2011 01:19pm

No one is going to bite on 3rd and 5???

MD Longhorn Tue Sep 13, 2011 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patton (Post 787491)
No one is going to bite on 3rd and 5???

Can't figure 3rd and 5 even as a decent wrong answer. 3rd and 10, maybe - from the offsetting fouls crowd (incorrect as well), but how's 3rd and 5 a possibility?

Welpe Tue Sep 13, 2011 01:31pm

Just for flavor:

NCAA, offset them. 3rd and 10 at the A-5.

KS_Blue Tue Sep 13, 2011 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 787497)
Can't figure 3rd and 5 even as a decent wrong answer. 3rd and 10, maybe - from the offsetting fouls crowd (incorrect as well), but how's 3rd and 5 a possibility?

I think he means by walking 15 one way, then half the distance (or 10 yds) the other way, leaving the chains where they were, and then playing 3rd down. That'd be 3rd and 5 from the 10.

MD Longhorn Tue Sep 13, 2011 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 787500)
Just for flavor:

NCAA, offset them. 3rd and 10 at the A-5.

Rule ref? This exact play (nearly) was discussed (well... yelled about) at a clinic just last season - basically ALL of the instructors and half of the room vs one guy who insisted they offset. It was clear that if the fouls were completely separate from each other, to enforce them in order. Only nearly simultaneous fouls were to be offset (including nearly immediate retaliation fouls).

Welpe Tue Sep 13, 2011 01:51pm

10-1-5 (FR-96)

Emphasis is mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10-1-5
Dead-Ball Fouls

ARTICLE 5. Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5-I-III)

[Exception: When dead-ball unsportsmanlike or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the referee and before any of the penalties have been completed, the fouls offset, the number or type of down established before the fouls occurred is unaffected, and the penalties are canceled, except that any disqualified player must leave the game (Rules 5-2-6 and 10-2-2-a)].


AR 10-1-5-III

Quote:

Originally Posted by AR 10-1-5-III

Second and goal at the three-yard line. Ball carrier A14 is downed at the one-yard line and then B67 piles on. A14 retaliates by slugging B67.

RULING: The penalties cancel since neither has been completed. A14 is disqualified for fighting. Third and goal (Rule 10-1-1).


JugglingReferee Tue Sep 13, 2011 03:29pm

Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patton (Post 787448)
A 2/10 @ A5. Sweep to the sideline for no gain. After the play, each team is called for a personal foul with B's foul clearly occuring first. What is the down and distance of the next play?

CANADIAN RULING:

Balance both UR fouls at PBD. Since they're both URs, Team A does not get the AFD from B's UR. Result: 3D/10 @ A-5.

MD Longhorn Tue Sep 13, 2011 04:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 787508)
10-1-5 (FR-96)

Emphasis is mine.




AR 10-1-5-III

I guess in my head the separation was more distinct in the OP than the caseplay you posted (I did mention that retaliatory PF's would offset, as in the caseplay)

cmathews Tue Sep 13, 2011 04:11pm

before any of the penalties have been completed
 
before any of the penalties have been completed

this allows a pretty large window...and it shouldn't matter if they were committed on opposite sides of the field.

MD Longhorn Tue Sep 13, 2011 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmathews (Post 787536)
before any of the penalties have been completed

this allows a pretty large window...and it shouldn't matter if they were committed on opposite sides of the field.

Fair enough, and point taken.

cmathews Tue Sep 13, 2011 04:45pm

i agree
 
I agree though that the case play doesn't make a very good case for the larg window of separation....

Patton Tue Sep 13, 2011 05:01pm

I think my thread has been highjacked by the NCAA group, which is a much easier rule to come to a conclusion on.

Back to NHFS...I agree with those who answered 1/10 @ A10, but the rule is not very clear in my eyes, or the people I'm trying to convince. Does anyone have any older casebook plays or other material to help plead my case?


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