what do you have???

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hmmm... food for thought, but the lack of the word MUST leads me to still see nothing untoward here.

The lack of the word "must" where?

Are you denying that a scrimmage down must start with a snap? Do you deny that the rules specify either what a snap is, or what must be done to snap the ball?

Think of it this way. Ball in player possession, player going down braces himself with the ball, sees a back behind him and tries to shuffle him the ball, but the ball ends up rolling on the ground...

Are you stopping the play? Calling that a bat? What? that can't be anything but a (bad) backward pass...

It makes a difference whether the ball is on the ground all the way from the time it leaves the player's possession, or travels thru the air any distance on leaving the player's hand(s). In the latter instance, it's a backwards pass. In the former, under the American codes, it's not a pass at all, and since they define "fumble" by exclusion, you'll see that's what it is, which means that NCAA's & NFL's rules on advancing a teammate's fumble come into play in some situations.

In Canadian football AFAIK sliding, rolling, or leaving the ball on the ground is a pass if it's intentional.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The lack of the word "must" where?

"ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a
pass, the ball travels in flight. "

Are you denying that a scrimmage down must start with a snap? Do you deny that the rules specify either what a snap is, or what must be done to snap the ball?

Pffft... um. NO! Of course not.

It makes a difference whether the ball is on the ground all the way from the time it leaves the player's possession, or travels thru the air any distance on leaving the player's hand(s). In the latter instance, it's a backwards pass. In the former, under the American codes, it's not a pass at all, and since they define "fumble" by exclusion, you'll see that's what it is, which means that NCAA's & NFL's rules on advancing a teammate's fumble come into play in some situations.

In Canadian football AFAIK sliding, rolling, or leaving the ball on the ground is a pass if it's intentional.

Sure. What's your point. Why is there any motivation by anyone here to call the OP an illegal snap? The rules basis for that is infinitely small, and doesn't seem (to me) to be the motivation of the rules writers. It seems we're trying very hard to justify calling something illegal in a case where there's no reason for us to have the desire to call it illegal. Or, to the adv/disadv people, what advantage is gained by the offense snapping the ball in the way described in the OP as opposed to lifting the ball 1 millimeter off the ground while making exactly the same snap. I don't get the motivation here.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

"ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a
pass, the ball travels in flight. "

That's a definition. Statements of fact, not commands. No "must" needed there. If something meets those conditions, it's a pass, otherwise not.

Sure. What's your point. Why is there any motivation by anyone here to call the OP an illegal snap?

It's come up in actual cases, which is why coaches are discussing it.

The rules basis for that is infinitely small, and doesn't seem (to me) to be the motivation of the rules writers.

Hard for me to infer that.

Different codes have defined "pass" differently. In NFL & Canadian football, handing the ball is a type of pass, in NCAA & Fed not. "Fumble" could have been defined in its intuitive way, i.e. involuntary loss of possession, but that's not what the rules makers have done. I'm not sure why they wrote them in such a way that a rolling or sliding pass is not a "pass", nor is a leave pass, where the ball is left on the ground. The requirements for the snap went thru some alterations, with interesting differences between American & Canadian development.

I'd have to research the development of the definition of "pass" to see if it came after its inclusion in the snap requirements, as I suspect it did. If that's true, then banning the roll-all-the-way snap was a side effect of adopting that definition of pass. Similarly, the NCAA & NFL restrictions on advancing a fumble apply to certain cases that would not be so if you could roll or slide a backwards pass, or just let go of the ball wihtout a throwing motion and have it fall backward. Did they really want it to be illegal for a team to advance the ball by a desperation leave-the-ball-behind-you pass? Maybe yes, maybe no.