Feb Quiz

[James Neil]

My Uncle Ernie just sent me these plays to work. I thought you guys might like to take a crack at them and we could liven up the board some . It's been so slow lately I even miss Derock LOL

1. 1/10 A10. The snap goes off QB A11's hands and the ball rolls to the A7. B21 bats the ball at the A8 and the ball rolls into the end zone where A22 picks up ball in the end zone, runs to the A30, fumbles and B22 recovers.



2. 3/10 on the B12. QB A8 drops back, looking for an open receiver . Just as A8 releases a legal forward pass toward A80 in the end zone, B90 steps on Guard A65 (who is on all fours) in an attempt to block the pass. A80 catches the pass for a touchdown.



3. First and goal on the B6. A22 runs for a touchdown. After the score A31 clipped on the B4.



4. 2/10 on the A6. QB A10 backward pitch out goes off the hands of back A20 and up into the air. Defensive end B89 bats the ball which goes OB at the A2.



5.4/1 50. B45 muffs A's punt at the B10, then recovers the rolling ball at the B4 and his momentum carries him into his End Zone. He attempts a backward pass to teammate B29, but the ball lands untouched on the end line.



6. 2/15 B26. A's forward pass is firmly grasped by airborne defender B45. While B45 is still airborne, two separate acts occur in the following order; B45 is shoved by A80, causing B45 to land OB at the B10 (he would have come down inbounds) with the ball in his possession; B77 clips A20 in the vicinity of the ball.



7. 2/10 B22. B18 intercepts a forward pass that the B2 yard line and his original momentum carries him in the end zone. He tries to run it out, but is trapped. He throws a backward pass towards B28 who is also in the end zone. B28 muffs the ball and A84 catches the ball in the end zone.



8. 2/18 A6. QB A8 pitches the ball back to Back A33 who muffs the ball at the A2. The ball bounces to the A3 where B91 tries to pick it up, but he muffs it and the ball rolls into the goal line pylon.



9. 4/6 B40. Punter A7 kicks the ball in to the end zone where B16 attempts to catch it. the ball bounces off of B16 and A81 catches it at the B2 yard line and falls down there. B89 was offside at the snap. After the play B93 swears at A81.

[Bob M.]

Jim, I'm working on them. Question...is #9 meant to be a Federation question or and NCAA question?? For NCAA the answer is more material than it would be for Federation.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by James Neil
My Uncle Ernie just sent me these plays to work. I thought you guys might like to take a crack at them and we could liven up the board some . It's been so slow lately I even miss Derock LOL

1. 1/10 A10. The snap goes off QB A11's hands and the ball rolls to the A7. B21 bats the ball at the A8 and the ball rolls into the end zone where A22 picks up ball in the end zone, runs to the A30, fumbles and B22 recovers.

B's ball 1st and 10 at A's 30. The ball rolling into the end zone has no material affect because the play did not end there.



2. 3/10 on the B12. QB A8 drops back, looking for an open receiver . Just as A8 releases a legal forward pass toward A80 in the end zone, B90 steps on Guard A65 (who is on all fours) in an attempt to block the pass. A80 catches the pass for a touchdown.

TD for A. B90 stepping on A65 in an attempt to get the ball or ball carrier is legal.

3. First and goal on the B6. A22 runs for a touchdown. After the score A31 clipped on the B4.

TD. Under the 2003 season rules A is penalized 15-yards on the extra point. Previosuly, that penalty would have been an automatic declination.

4. 2/10 on the A6. QB A10 backward pitch out goes off the hands of back A20 and up into the air. Defensive end B89 bats the ball which goes OB at the A2.

Third and 14 on A's 2. B89 did not have possession, therefore, batting is a legal attempt to gain possession. This was a backward pass and the out-of-bounds spot is where it crossed the sideline.


5.4/1 50. B45 muffs A's punt at the B10, then recovers the rolling ball at the B4 and his momentum carries him into his End Zone. He attempts a backward pass to teammate B29, but the ball lands untouched on the end line.

Safety. B45 applied a new force when he attempt the backward pass. Until the backward pass I would have ruled momentum since the force at the time of the muff was from B's kick.

6. 2/15 B26. A's forward pass is firmly grasped by airborne defender B45. While B45 is still airborne, two separate acts occur in the following order; B45 is shoved by A80, causing B45 to land OB at the B10 (he would have come down inbounds) with the ball in his possession; B77 clips A20 in the vicinity of the ball.

Tough call. According to the order given. First and 10 for A at B's 10 having reach the line-to-gain with the shove. The clip is then a dead ball foul penalized from the succeeding spot, A's 10, half the distance to the goal. First and goal for A.

7. 2/10 B22. B18 intercepts a forward pass that the B2 yard line and his original momentum carries him in the end zone. He tries to run it out, but is trapped. He throws a backward pass towards B28 who is also in the end zone. B28 muffs the ball and A84 catches the ball in the end zone.

TD for A. B18 could have had a momentum exception until the backward pass placed a new force on the ball. Discretion is the batter part of valor. He should have taken a knee, but he didn't.

8. 2/18 A6. QB A8 pitches the ball back to Back A33 who muffs the ball at the A2. The ball bounces to the A3 where B91 tries to pick it up, but he muffs it and the ball rolls into the goal line pylon.

Safety. B91 never gained possession.

9. 4/6 B40. Punter A7 kicks the ball in to the end zone where B16 attempts to catch it. the ball bounces off of B16 and A81 catches it at the B2 yard line and falls down there. B89 was offside at the snap. After the play B93 swears at A81.

(NFHS)My wingmen and I are going to have a talk after the game (I'll do the talking, they do the listening)!

There is no such thing as offside in the NFHS code but there is encroachment. And, encroachment kills the play. Regardless of the action after the snap, the ball was dead. Fourth and 11 from B's 45. But then no unsportsmanlike act can go unpunished. Walkoff 15-yards against B and that makes it a first down for A at B's 30.

It would be a totally different story under NCAA rules.





[/B][/QUOTE]

[STEVED21]

ED,

I agree with most of your answers, but...

1. If the bat is illegal, the penalty would be accepted
and A would keep the ball after enforcement from the previous spot. Loose ball play.

3. Dead ball foul. Would have been enforced even last year.

5. Mommentum doesn't apply. Kick was grounded.

6. B intercepted the pass. Enforce the foul at the spot of the interception, assuming it occured after the catch. I think you read the question wrong.

7. Result is OK. But, the fact that B did not have team possession at the end of the down, not the backward pass itself, took the mommentum exception off.

8. Could be a touchback since ball was bouncing AWAY from the goal line and if you ruled that B provided new force. Since we can't see the play, it could go either way.

9. Get new wing men.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Bob M.
Jim, I'm working on them. Question...is #9 meant to be a Federation question or and NCAA question?? For NCAA the answer is more material than it would be for Federation.

Uncile Ernie and other in our assocation work both NF and NCAA. He sends us a monthly quiz during the off season to keep sharp. Since you study both codes Bob , I execpt a proper ruling from both NF and NCAA from you !!!!!! 8^) LOL

[James Neil]

Just for discussion purposes I'm going to go ahead and post the NF answers that Uncle Ernies sent me. I've already sent him my my opinion on one ruling I've taken execption too, to say the least LOL . I see that others might disagree with some of these also .


1. A 1/10 A25. Snap

2. Try from B1 1/2 or KO from B45. Untimed or Kick.

3. Try on the 18. Untimed

4. A 3/14 A2. Snap

5. B 1/10 B4 Snap

6. B1/10 B5 Snap

7. TD. Try from the B3 untimed.

8. Safety. A KO for 20. Kick

9. B1/10 B10. Snap

the only answers that I really feel he kicked were his rulings on #5 and #9(NF) . I feel 2 and 8 need some discussion







[Edited by James Neil on Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:52 PM]

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by James Neil
Just for discussion purposes I'm going to go ahead and post the NF answers that Uncle Ernies sent me. I've already sent him my my opinion on one ruling I've taken execption too, to say the least LOL . I see that others might disagree with some of these also .


8. Safety. A KO for 20. Kick



the only answers that I really feel he kicked were his rulings on #5 and #9(NF) . I feel 2 and 8 need some discussion

8. 2/18 A6. QB A8 pitches the ball back to Back A33 who muffs the ball at the A2. The ball bounces to the A3 where B91 tries to pick it up, but he muffs it and the ball rolls into the goal line pylon.

Safety. B91 never gained possession.

[Edited by James Neil on Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:52 PM]

STEVED21 said:

8. Could be a touchback since ball was bouncing AWAY from the goal line and if you ruled that B provided new force. Since we can't see the play, it could go either way.

But NFHS 2-13-4b -- Force is not a factor: When a backward pass or fumble is declared dead in the end zone of the opponent of the player who passed or fumbled, with no player possession.

My thought is pretty definitive. Must rule a safety.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by James Neil
Just for discussion purposes I'm going to go ahead and post the NF answers that Uncle Ernies sent me. I've already sent him my my opinion on one ruling I've taken execption too, to say the least LOL . I see that others might disagree with some of these also .

9. B1/10 B10. Snap

the only answers that I really feel he kicked were his rulings on #5 and #9(NF) . I feel 2 and 8 need some discussion

9. 4/6 B40. Punter A7 kicks the ball in to the end zone where B16 attempts to catch it. the ball bounces off of B16 and A81 catches it at the B2 yard line and falls down there. B89 was offside at the snap. After the play B93 swears at A81.


[Edited by James Neil on Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:52 PM]

NFHS. Got the direction wrong in my first response. Dead ball foul. Disregard the play (A's coach and fans will not be happy). Basic spot B's 40. Encroachment against the defense, five yards, fourth and one at B's 35. Then B93's USC moves the ball 15 yards from the succeeding spot to B's 20. First and 10.

Just because the play was disregarded does not excuse B93's USC foul.

The clock status: Whatever it was from the last play since the foul was a dead ball foul.

And, I am still going to TALK! to my wingmen for letting the play go.

[Bob M.]

For Federation, the force was actually B45's carrying of the ball into his endzone. It was not his backward pass, since he made the pass from within the endzone. Remember, force is ths initiative which moves the ball from the field of play into an endzone. Also, since the play says that B45 recovers the ball (meaning it was grounded), the momentum exception does not apply. Safety is the correct ruling.

In NCAA ball, the momentum exception does apply to recoveries, which would give the ball to B, 1-10 @ B's 4 if the covering official rules that B45's momentum was responsible for the ball being in the endzone and becoming dead there. [Jim, I think Uncle Ernie gave you an NCAA ruling on this one!]

[Mike Simonds]

NF rules: Personal foul on B90 for illegal personal contact (rule 9-4-2e). I remember the NCAA added this rule after Notre Dame beat Michigan 12 to 10 in 1979 I believe (I was only 19 at the time). Michigan was attempting a last second field goal to win the game when Bob Crable, Irish linebacker, stepped on a teammate's back to block the kick.

New rule change for 2003: A may accept the result of the play which is a touchdown and enforce B's foul from the succeeding spot (3 yard line which is the spot of the try; rule 8-2-2).

Just curious, seems like your uncle Ernie's answer gives A the choice of enforcing the penalty on the try or the free-kick. What is the NF rule support for this? I can see where A may not want the distance penalty enforced on the try and this would be a good move to have it enforced on the kick-off. But the NF rule does not seem to support this. Or can somebody lead me to the rule reference...

Looking forward to your next round of questions!

[Mike Simonds]

I have to rule a touchback on this one. B91 applied a new force to a grounded fumble. Also, prior to B91's muff, the ball was moving away from the goal line.

When you gentlemen get back from vacation I'm also looking forward to your input on my responses.

[JMN]

Hey James, couldn't you have included a few more questions on this one? lol

Good post from Uncle Ernie. He must have been (is he dead?) or is an Umpire (wanting to see others sweat!)

[Mike Simonds]

Just curious about my earlier question about whether A can accept the penalty against B during a successful touchdown play and have a choice of enforcement: on the try or on the ensuring free-kick. Thanks!

[bryancrouch]

teams never receive the choice on when to accept the penalty, only whether to accept it or not.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
Just curious about my earlier question about whether A can accept the penalty against B during a successful touchdown play and have a choice of enforcement: on the try or on the ensuring free-kick. Thanks!

teams never receive the choice on when to accept the penalty, only whether to accept it or not.

To answer the question, NFHS penalty enforcement is about as straightforward as it gets. Under 2002 rules a foul by B was automatically declined. Under the 2003 rule, the penalty will be enforced from the succeeding spot just like all other penalties.

Therefore, the point after is the succeeding spot.