For Derock...and others

[Derock1986]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Originally posted by Derock1986
Posted by Mike
Officiating is going to be a frustrating venture until the tone changes and the willingness to learn is presented. I'd encourage you to learn from these guys. I'd hate to see what the officials at mcgriffs forum would do to you!

Who exactly are the guys I'm suppose to be learning from? Are you referring to certain individuals or just all guys who are members of this forum? As far as I'm concerned there is no official here who is above all others where everyone should listen to only him. We all can learn something from EVERY official who posts here. The rule book should dictate the lessons learned and the experiences of officials are only as valuable to others as others perceive them to be.

[nvfoa15]

#3 1/10 from the A-25. Result of the play is a first down. The dead ball penalty happened between the end of the play and the RFP. Assess the yardage and set the chains.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by nvfoa15
#3 1/10 from the A-25. Result of the play is a first down. The dead ball penalty happened between the end of the play and the RFP. Assess the yardage and set the chains.

I guess I am mininterpretting NFHS Rule 5-1-2. It states as follows:

A new series of downs is awarded as follows:

After a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead ball foul.

After a 4th down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike.

In the situation I posted above, it was 1/10. Team A obtained the line-to-gain during the play but commited a dead-ball personal foul. We should consider that act before awarding a new set of downs, right? Or am I misinterpreting this somehow? Help and comments are always appreciated.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by mikesears

I guess I am mininterpretting NFHS Rule 5-1-2. It states as follows:

A new series of downs is awarded as follows:

After a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead ball foul.

After a 4th down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike.

In the situation I posted above, it was 1/10. Team A obtained the line-to-gain during the play but commited a dead-ball personal foul. We should consider that act before awarding a new set of downs, right? Or am I misinterpreting this somehow? Help and comments are always appreciated.

Rule 5-1-2 pertains to live ball fouls. Dead ball fouls are penalized from the dead ball spot after 5-1-2 is applied.

That happened in the Tennessee-Oakland game.

Once A reaches the line-to-gain it will be a first down. Then the dead ball penalty will be applied. Then first and 10.

Before 5-1-2 was revised that dead ball penalty would have been enforced from the dead ball spot giving an additional 15 yards to the line-to-gain. In other words, A would get the first and ten. Then a 15-yard penalty. First and 25.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by mikesears

I guess I am mininterpretting NFHS Rule 5-1-2. It states as follows:

A new series of downs is awarded as follows:

After a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead ball foul.

After a 4th down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike.

In the situation I posted above, it was 1/10. Team A obtained the line-to-gain during the play but commited a dead-ball personal foul. We should consider that act before awarding a new set of downs, right? Or am I misinterpreting this somehow? Help and comments are always appreciated.

I agree with your interpretation Mike. I think rule 5-1-2 certainly applies to this play but I'm only a "youth" official so what do I know. You may want to wait on the official and final response from Mr Neil, KWH, and others.

[mikesears]

Derock

I may have to switch sides on this issue just knowing you agree with me

PLEASE NOTE THE EMOTICON!

I hope you haven't felt targeted because you are a youth league official.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Rule 5-1-2 pertains to live ball fouls. Dead ball fouls are penalized from the dead ball spot after 5-1-2 is applied.

That happened in the Tennessee-Oakland game.

Once A reaches the line-to-gain it will be a first down. Then the dead ball penalty will be applied. Then first and 10.

Before 5-1-2 was revised that dead ball penalty would have been enforced from the dead ball spot giving an additional 15 yards to the line-to-gain. In other words, A would get the first and ten. Then a 15-yard penalty. First and 25.

I'm learning...confused...but learning.

Rule 5-1-2 pertains to when to award a new series of downs and it address both live and dead ball situations.

It reads...

After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul.

I quote you, "Once A reaches the line-to-gain it will be a first down. Then the dead ball penalty will be applied."

This seems to contradict rule 5-1-2. If I'm wrong, please help me get there.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Rule 5-1-2 pertains to live ball fouls. Dead ball fouls are penalized from the dead ball spot after 5-1-2 is applied.

That happened in the Tennessee-Oakland game.

Once A reaches the line-to-gain it will be a first down. Then the dead ball penalty will be applied. Then first and 10.

Before 5-1-2 was revised that dead ball penalty would have been enforced from the dead ball spot giving an additional 15 yards to the line-to-gain. In other words, A would get the first and ten. Then a 15-yard penalty. First and 25.

The NFL aside, I'm still having difficulty with the 1,2, or 3 down situation. I'm thinking out loud here.

When we talk about "a new series" we are talking about "moving the chains" for a new 1/10 situation, correct?

If be in complete agreement if the rule read, "After a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down.(PERIOD) and any dead ball foul.

Let's rephrase using my understanding of the rule (this may be where I am mistaken):

After 1,2, or 3 down, the chains are moved only after considering the action that occured and any fouls that occur during the down (including dead ball fouls).

I guess my question is this: What do we do with the part about "and any dead ball foul"?

Isn't a late hit a dead ball foul? It isn't non-player and it isn't classified as UC. Isn't this an act we should consider before awarding a first down? I'm having difficulty understanding this. What other rules come into play in this situation?

Does anyone have a casebook reference that would further explain this rule?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm tyring to firm this up in my own mind.

Thanks!







[Edited by mikesears on Jan 20th, 2003 at 12:39 PM]

[Bob M.]

Mike,

I agree that the wording of NF 5-1-2 could use some cleaning up. I would add to 5-1-2a some clarification that implies that after 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down a new series is awarded after considering any foul activity during the down and any dead ball fouls by B. The way the rule is currently written, one could make the argument that if A makes the line to gain and then commits a dead ball foul that brings the ball back behind the LTG, it would not be a new series. That's false! It would indeed be a new series, but would begin 15 yards back from the dead ball spot.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Bob M.
Mike,

I agree that the wording of NF 5-1-2 could use some cleaning up. I would add to 5-1-2a some clarification that implies that after 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down a new series is awarded after considering any foul activity during the down and any dead ball fouls by B. The way the rule is currently written, one could make the argument that if A makes the line to gain and then commits a dead ball foul that brings the ball back behind the LTG, it would not be a new series. That's false! It would indeed be a new series, but would begin 15 yards back from the dead ball spot.

Again, I'm not trying to be difficult but I am curious as to where the support is for this interpretation. Is there a casebook play? Is there another rule that I've overlooked that clarifies this? I'm not looking for subjective opinion, rather I'm looking for confirmation from a definitive source. Casebook, NFHS posting, etc.

I can see a coach ripping me a new one if he reads this rule and interprets it as I have here and I enforce it the other way.

[ABoselli]

Agreed. I had this so crystal clear in my head but I was always thinking of fouls by B and on 4th down - there are a few case book plays to drive that point home. They neglect (as well as mislabel which rule is being illustrated) the foul by A on 1-3 down after the line to gain has been reached. I am now firmly in the 2nd and 5 camp. If we are to consider the effect of any act during the down as well as any dead ball foul (like the one described) then we can't award a new series because the dead ball act that we will consider moves A back 15 from the end of the run. If he made the A 40 yd line, backing up 15 puts A at the 25, which is 5 yards behind the line to gain. We don't repeat the down because it wasn't a live ball penalty (like holding) so we must proceed to the next down.

I'm not married to this, its just my girlfriend at the moment.

[mikesears]

I just sent a note to my high school association for an official ruling on this. If I find out that we enforce the dead ball foul before declaring a first down, it leads to an interesting situation. What happens if A commits a dead ball foul after we request that the chains move and before we declare the ball ready for play? YIKES! Where was the old line-to-gain??

I'm just looking for a ruling with authority.

Thanks!

[STEVED21]

Guys,

Football Fundamental # 10.
"Whether the next down will be first is determined at the time the ball becomes dead and after considering any act except a nonplayer or unsportsmanship foul which occured DURING(my emphasis) the down."

5-3-1

" when a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls )including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike conduct) committed prior to the ready for play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established."

Therefore, it's first and 10 for A from whereever the ball is after the late hit penalty.

[Ed Hickland]

It's all wording.

"A new series of downs is awarded as follows:...considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul."

Rule 5-3-1 states "The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. When a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls (including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike) committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established."

In 1997 the rule and the wording of 5-3-1 was revised from "The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. The line-to-gain is established at the end of the down in which a new series is awarded and after considering the effect of any act which occurs during the down other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established.

Those changes to 5-1-2 and 5-3-1 were part of a package in 1997 that was established to always give the offense 1st and 10 and no longer 1st and 25 or something more than 10.

There were a number of examples of the new enforcement with most developed around 4th down. Here are appropriate examples to the question posed here from the 1997 Case Book.

Fourth and 2 on B's 25-yard line. A1 is tackled at the 26, short of the line to gain, and B2 then piles on. Ruling The referee shall signal a change of possession by signaling first down toward A's goal. The penalty for B2's dead-ball foul is administered and the line-to-gain equipment then set, making it first and 10 for Team B from their own 13-yard line.

or,

Third and 10 for A from B's 40-yard line. A1 gains 10 yards and is downed on B's 30. A2 taunts B1 during the run. Ruling Since the live-ball action gave A a new series, the line to gain shall be established after A is penalized for A2's unsportsmanlike act, it will be first and 10 for A from B's 45-yard line.

I agree the wording for 5-1-2 is confusing but the substance is you first determine if you have a first down. Then you enforce the appropriate dead ball or unsportsmanlike before setting the chains.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: However, Mike's correct that the wording of 5-1-2a does raise some questions.