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-   -   NEW - 2003 NFHS Football Rule Changes (as written by the NFHS Rules Committee) (https://forum.officiating.com/football/7004-new-2003-nfhs-football-rule-changes-written-nfhs-rules-committee.html)

Theisey Thu Jan 16, 2003 08:03pm

Re: Re: Re:
 
Quote:

Originally posted by KWH
Quote:

4th and 9 for K on the K30,
Flyer K5 is held by R6 on the K37,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
and is caught by R19 on the R30 and returned to the R35.

Based on the way the new rule reads, R did not recieve the ball with "Clean Hands" and thus I have a PREVIOUS SPOT foul and the situation is now 1st and 10 for K/A on the K40.
This should be PSK and if not then the NF rules people apparently did not even take a look at how the NCAA rule is written.

Quote:

Different spin;
4th and 9 for K on the K30,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage.
According to how the new rule is written I have PSK enforcment!
This should not be a PSK foul.

I see no sense in continuing on this until the actual words that will be in the rule book are seen by all. Hopefully, this is all a misinterpretation, but if this is truely the way the rule is written, there will be problems as it in my opinion how PSK should be written when compared to the PSK rule in NCAA.

AndrewMcCarthy Thu Jan 16, 2003 08:43pm

Read it R E A L S L O W
 
KWH- you posted this originally. I highlighted the parts you seem to be missing- go to your play and apply it again...

A post scrimmage kick (PSK) foul is an R foul that occurs on R’s side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick during a scrimmage kick that ends beyond the neutral zone and K does not have possession of the ball when the kick ends.

sm_bbcoach Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:45pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
 
Please explain why the first example is PSk, and teh second is NOT. I am now confused. It appeasr to me that the hold is PRIOR to the kick, meaning it happened PROIR to the kick, not post kick action. The second to me happens after (post) kick. Am I way off base here or just confused wiht the meaning?


Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
Quote:

Originally posted by KWH
Quote:

4th and 9 for K on the K30,
Flyer K5 is held by R6 on the K37,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
and is caught by R19 on the R30 and returned to the R35.

Based on the way the new rule reads, R did not recieve the ball with "Clean Hands" and thus I have a PREVIOUS SPOT foul and the situation is now 1st and 10 for K/A on the K40.
This should be PSK and if not then the NF rules people apparently did not even take a look at how the NCAA rule is written.

Quote:

Different spin;
4th and 9 for K on the K30,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage.
According to how the new rule is written I have PSK enforcment!
This should not be a PSK foul.

I see no sense in continuing on this until the actual words that will be in the rule book are seen by all. Hopefully, this is all a misinterpretation, but if this is truely the way the rule is written, there will be problems as it in my opinion how PSK should be written when compared to the PSK rule in NCAA.


KWH Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:03am

Re: Read it R E A L S L O W
 
Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy
KWH- you posted this originally. I highlighted the parts you seem to be missing- go to your play and apply it again...

A post scrimmage kick (PSK) foul is an R foul that occurs on R’s side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick during a scrimmage kick that ends beyond the neutral zone and K does not have possession of the ball when the kick ends.

Sorry Andrew, I didn't realize I was going to fast for you! Let me slow it down a bit just for you!

My point, I thought, was fairly straitforward. While we now have PSK, it does not appear to be written the same as the NCAA Rule. I believe that this may cause some serious confusion among officials who work both codes!
Hence we need to be careful NOT to assume it the same was as the NCAA rule!

In my example plays, the first play is a concern as under NCAA it would be enforced under PSK. However under NFHS rules it appears on the surface that since the foul did not occur ...during the scrimmage kick...rather it occured BEFORE the scrimmage kick it is questionable if the foul would be enforced under PSK.

The second example play is a bad example for the point I was attempting to make. By reading the NFHS rules it appears this play as I wrote it, is a previous spot foul under both codes!

Thank you Andrew, for pointing out my error!

Theisey Fri Jan 17, 2003 07:24am

Either you are being misinformed or missing this point.
The foul need only occur during a play in which a scrimmage kick occurs not just while the kick is in the air beyond the NZ.

No timing involved. If all the remaining criteria is meet, you have PSK enforcement.

AndrewMcCarthy Fri Jan 17, 2003 09:57am

You didn't even read it, KWH!!!
 
Sorry, KWH, but I disagreed with you because you stated that Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage and according to how the new rule is written you have PSK enforcment. Not true since this didn't happen on R's side of the expanded neutral zone (as you yourself stated in the rule).

I also disagree that timing is not a factor as Theisey implies. Again, going to the rule as KWH has stated, the foul must happen "during a scrimmage kick."

When I read the rule as posted, it is the same as NCAA, possibly worded a bit differently. Here's what I know about NCAA PSK and if you read them both they're the same...

To have PSK enforcement 5 variables MUST be met.

1. Foul must be DURING a kick other than a try OR FG attempts in OVERTIME periods.
2. Foul must be DURING a scrimmage kick which crosses the
NZ
3.Foul must occur 3 or more yds beyond the NZ
4. Foul must occur BEFORE the end of the kick
5. A(K) must NOT be in possession of the ball at the end of
the down


Ed Hickland Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:45am

Re: Re: Penalty Enforcement???
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mikesears

This is my guess at is.

We have a PSK foul on R so I'm assuming this means R got the ball with "clean hands". The enforcement spot for the PSK foul is either going to be the end of the kick (or, depending upon the action, the spot of the foul????). K's foul complicates matters a little and the rest of the action is unimportant. If R wants to keep the ball, the must decline K's penalty and R's penalty will be enforced from the end of the kick. (Where R gained possession??)

If R accepts K's foul, we have a double-foul ??? and replay of the down???

[Edited by mikesears on Jan 16th, 2003 at 07:25 AM]

My question is when does possession change? Under the previous rule the ball stayed in team possession of K until R secured player and team possession.

If team possession changes when the ball crosses the neutral zone the concept of "clean hands" would not apply becuase the ball already belongs to R.

If that is so, the situation presented is a double foul. A double foul is a "do over" back to the previous spot.

But the previous spot was before change of possession, surely that cannot be possible because you would give the ball back to K.

So my guess is the spot of enforcement would be the spot where R took possession, penalties offset, first and ten for R.

Now I understand why the rules makers did not want this change!

Theisey Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:12am

Re: You didn't even read it, KWH!!!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy
To have PSK enforcement 5 variables MUST be met.

1. Foul must be DURING a kick other than a try OR FG attempts in OVERTIME periods.
2. Foul must be DURING a scrimmage kick which crosses the
NZ
3.Foul must occur 3 or more yds beyond the NZ
4. Foul must occur BEFORE the end of the kick
5. A(K) must NOT be in possession of the ball at the end of
the down

Where did you get your definitions for numbers 1 and 2.
Here are the equivalent two definitions right out of the NCAA 2002 rule book.

1. During scrimmage kick plays other than a try.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the NZ

Note it refers to a "play" not the actual timing of the kick.

If you are telling me that the NF definiton is different than this, I say they messed up the wording.

AndrewMcCarthy Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:48am

Theisey- if NCAA says "During a scrimmage kick play" then I misunderstood the rule and you're correct- NFHS does appear different. We'll have to see how it's actually worded once it's posted.

Theisey Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:25pm

that's what it says.
If interested, go to this link: http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf
and open rule 10 (page FR-121) you can see the wording.

There should be no reason for the NF wording to be any different, but if the wording is, I see problems.

AndrewMcCarthy Fri Jan 17, 2003 01:32pm

I see it- and they define scrimmage kick play as beginning with the snap.

I'm looking at the rules from an experimental state from last season...

http://www.khsaa.org/football/2002/clinichandout.pdf

The way it's worded here is confusing. In 10-4-3 they specifically say "during a scrimmage kick play". Then later in the rationale and notes they leave out the word "play". Big difference!! I wonder if they'll add the definition for "scrimmage kick play".

KWH Fri Jan 17, 2003 03:13pm

Yes, I did read it Andrew. And then I corrected my mistake!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy
Sorry, KWH, but I disagreed with you because you stated that Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage and according to how the new rule is written you have PSK enforcment. Not true since this didn't happen on R's side of the expanded neutral zone (as you yourself stated in the rule).
Andrew, as I stated in another post (eight posts above this one (or two above the one in which you jumped my sh*t))...

The second example play is a bad example for the point I was attempting to make. By reading the NFHS rules it appears this play as I wrote it, is a previous spot foul under both codes!

I made a mistake when I used the two lineman on the line of scrimmage as an example. I also corrected it by saying that this would be previous spot enforcement.
Thank you for correcting me twice! Hoewver if you had read my follow up post you would see I corrected my error!
Thanks again

[Edited by KWH on Jan 17th, 2003 at 02:16 PM]

Bob M. Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:30am

100% Correct, Tom
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Theisey
Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey I certainly hope the rule wording does not say what you just quoted about. if it does, then the NF rules people missed the boat on this change.
A holding call against a flyer could very well be 7 to 10 yards down field and the kick hasn't even been made yet.
What you just said than disqualifies that from being a PSK foul.
That isn't PSK as the NCAA defines it nor should it be how the NFHS defined it.
REPLY: This is the thing I've been most concerned about since first reading about the Fed's ideas about PSK. Whereas the NCAA has something called a "scrimmage kick play," the Fed has to try to force-fit PSK into some sort of exception to typical "loose ball play" enforcement. And to stipulate that R must have "clean hands" prior to the scrimmage kick crosses the expanded neutral zone adds serious mechanics issues into what is already a rather weildy rules issue. PSK enforcement should include the interval between the snap and the kick as long as all the other PSK criteria are met.


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