I realize a preliminary version of this was posted on this forum previously, however this version provides how the rule shall be written, So...

In no particular order of importance or rule reference, here is the basic information on the 2003 rules changes:


1) Using an illegal tee will now be penalized as using/having illegal equipment under 9-8-1h,


2) Rule 7-5-9a now reads…..”A players, when B touches the pass or last forward pass if more than one.”


3) Rule 8-2-4 is new….If during a touchdown scoring play, a foul by the opponent of the scoring team occurs, the scoring team may accept the result of the play and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot. Rule 8-4-3 is also changed to add…..”or accepting the results of the play and having the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot.” This change applies to field goals; the rationale being that all fouls by the defense on scoring plays, TD, PAT or FG now carry some consequence. These changes will also be cross-referenced to 10-5-1d.


4) Rule 2-17-3 regarding clipping and blocking in the back is clarified but not changed.


5) And now for the biggie……there is now post-scrimmage kick (PSK) enforcement in HS football. The generic rule will read under 2-16-2h (definitions)….A post scrimmage kick (PSK) foul is an R foul that occurs on R’s side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick during a scrimmage kick that ends beyond the neutral zone and K does not have possession of the ball when the kick ends. PSK does not apply to a try. This change causes additional changes to other rules and definitions that I’m not going into because of their length. This new change does not create any exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that R has to get the ball with “clean hands,” but that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.


There are the usual points of emphasis and editorial changes that I’m not going to get into now. Just thought I’d get your juices flowing in the off season.
This should also create some good off season dialouge!

Penalty Enforcement???
 

Ok, 2003 NFHS Rules

1) K's ball 4th and 16 on the K15.
2) After K-9's punt has crossed the neutral zone expanded and is still in flight, R-2 is flagged for an "Illegal Block in the Back" at the K40.
3) The ball hits the ground at the R45 and while it is bouncing around K-7 is flagged for an "Illegal Block in the Back" at the K45.
4) Then, R-1 scoops up the untouched ball at the 50 and advances to the K30 where he is downed.

You make the call!





[Edited by KWH on Jan 16th, 2003 at 06:15 AM]

Re: Penalty Enforcement???
 

I'll give it a shot with my VERY limited knowledge of PSK. If the announcers can do it, so can I :D

This is my guess at is.

We have a PSK foul on R so I'm assuming this means R got the ball with "clean hands". The enforcement spot for the PSK foul is either going to be the end of the kick (or, depending upon the action, the spot of the foul????). K's foul complicates matters a little and the rest of the action is unimportant. If R wants to keep the ball, the must decline K's penalty and R's penalty will be enforced from the end of the kick. (Where R gained possession??)

If R accepts K's foul, we have a double-foul ??? and replay of the down???

Can't wait to actually get the rulebook. How'd I do? I'm using my game sense to answer.








[Edited by mikesears on Jan 16th, 2003 at 07:25 AM]

Mike,
Try to resist using the term "R got the ball with clean hands" as in actuallity they did not.

I'm going to use a portion of an NCAA definition, so fill in the actually NF equivalent for this, that portion is that we apply PSK to team-R/Bs foul was more than three yards beyond the NZ. If their foul did not meet that portion of the definition, then PSK would not apply.

That's whay I say to forget the clean hands stuff during the scrimmage kick. A team R/B foul 3 or more yards downfield while the kick is in the air is most certainly would not be clean hands, but that doesn't matter for PSK

Your answer looks correct. The basic spot for PSK is the spot where the kick ends (BAG it).

Thanks. Many other officials and I are going to need to spend some time understanding PSK enforcement and these types of exercises are very good for me personally.

Am I correct in stating that if R wanted to accept K's foul (during the kick), it would be a double-foul and the down would be replayed?

Is the PSK spot just another SPOT on the field?

I realize it may be difficult to answer because the NFHS doesn't have the rule wording out yet, but maybe your NCAA experience can help me understand this.

I am very grateful for any/all help you have already given and additional help you can give to me.

Thanks!

PSK will not be too much of a problem to understand and apply.

Yes, in your example a replay could result if Team-R decided that accepting PSK was not in their best interest. Can't say that I've seen this happen, but I'm sure it has.

The PSK spot is just another name for the basic spot for the 3-and-1 or all-but-1 to be applied. It's marked via a bean bag.

Lets hope they put some decent case book plays into the book or on their interpretation section on the web.

Guys, A little help here.
 

I certainly don't know PSK, but why wouldn't this be an offseting, live ball foul situation. Take it back to the K15 (previous spot) and kick it again?

Why does the PSK rule alter enforcement since both teams fouled during the kick? Someone posted that PSK may have an affect on the Basic Spot for enforcement, but this looks like it actually changes the enforcement.

Someone please enlighten me. Or maybe I just need a little more game sense!

Thanks in advance!!

OK, for my sake, lets begin basic then work up to the crazy ones.

Take out the K-7 ill. block.

So now, we have a punt crosses expanded nz (assume ball is 3 yds away) then we have the ill block in back by R-2 at the R40.

R then catches the punt at R20, runs to K30 tackle.
We now have PSK foul at R40, possesion b y R at R20, ball is now resting at K30.

The basic spot would be R20 (psk) correct??? So now we have R ball 1/10 from R10 correct???? The other spots are not needed.

Please tell me if this is correct. If so, then I can concentrate on the foul by K

The way the rule was before PSK is that the basic spot for penalty enforcement for any loose ball play (including legal kicks) was the previous spot.

The change simply means the basic spot for penalty enforcement for any foul by R beyond the expanded neutral zone during a scrimmage kick down that ...... fill in the blank with the other criteria here ..... is now the end of the kick. Then apply the all-but-one/3-and-1 principle.

All that they've done is shifted WHERE the enforcement spot is and WHO gets the ball after a scrimmage kick.

Is this basically it? I know there are some exceptions.

I'd say you have the concept down. See, it will not really be too difficult to enforce.

I read in another forum, that team-R/B did elect for a replay this past season a couple of times. That NCAA official also thought it was an odd decision.

I am hoping that this will also be revised on 7-5-9c, as that is the one that I have had a problem with, in terms of the language. I agree on the spirit of the rule, but I feel that "forward" should be added to emphasize that PI restrictions end for B when the first forward pass has been touched by A or B.

"Clean Hands"
 

Theisey-
I understand what you are saying and I am confident we would both penalize this foul the same way, however;
The NFHS likes consistancy and they ARE NOT throwing out the term "CLEAN HANDS" is respect to PSK. Rather they are saying:
"..This new change does not create any exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that R has to get the ball with “clean hands,” but that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone."
As I write this I realize there are two ways of saying the same thing (your way and the NFHS way). I just think it is important to note that the NFHS "CLEAN HANDS" principal IS NOT disregarded for this play rather R/B responsibility for "CLEAN HANDS" ends when the kicked ball crosses the neutral zone expanded.
I guess that was alot of words to say I agree with you, and I so glad PSK has finaly arrived!

I think I'll add something to my coint toss speech -

"Gentleman, please do not commit double fouls during scrimmage kicks, as it kind of muddies the water, so to speak. Thank you. White, you're the visitor, please call it in the air".

That oughta do the trick.

Re:
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWH
[B]I certainly hope the rule wording does not say what you just quoted about. if it does, then the NF rules people missed the boat on this change.
A holding call against a flyer could very well be 7 to 10 yards down field and the kick hasn't even been made yet.
What you just said than disqualifies that from being a PSK foul.
That isn't PSK as the NCAA defines it nor should it be how the NFHS defined it.

Re: Re:
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Theisey
[B]OK, Thank you! you understood where I was going with that one, (even though I was just rambling)
Because on your play:

4th and 9 for K on the K30,
Flyer K5 is held by R6 on the K37,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
and is caught by R19 on the R30 and returned to the R35.

Based on the way the new rule reads, R did not recieve the ball with "Clean Hands" and thus I have a PREVIOUS SPOT foul and the situation is now 1st and 10 for K/A on the K40.

Different spin;
4th and 9 for K on the K30,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage.

According to how the new rule is written I have PSK enforcment!

I think I may take a camera to the first meeting this year just for the entertainment purposes of later viewing.

Re: Re: Re:
 

Quote:

4th and 9 for K on the K30, Flyer K5 is held by R6 on the K37, PAUSE, KICK, the ball crosses the line, and is caught by R19 on the R30 and returned to the R35. Based on the way the new rule reads, R did not recieve the ball with "Clean Hands" and thus I have a PREVIOUS SPOT foul and the situation is now 1st and 10 for K/A on the K40.

This should be PSK and if not then the NF rules people apparently did not even take a look at how the NCAA rule is written.

Quote:

Different spin; 4th and 9 for K on the K30, PAUSE, KICK, the ball crosses the line, Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage. According to how the new rule is written I have PSK enforcment!

This should not be a PSK foul.

I see no sense in continuing on this until the actual words that will be in the rule book are seen by all. Hopefully, this is all a misinterpretation, but if this is truely the way the rule is written, there will be problems as it in my opinion how PSK should be written when compared to the PSK rule in NCAA.

Read it R E A L S L O W
 

KWH- you posted this originally. I highlighted the parts you seem to be missing- go to your play and apply it again...

A post scrimmage kick (PSK) foul is an R foul that occurs on R’s side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick during a scrimmage kick that ends beyond the neutral zone and K does not have possession of the ball when the kick ends.

Re: Re: Re: Re:
 

Please explain why the first example is PSk, and teh second is NOT. I am now confused. It appeasr to me that the hold is PRIOR to the kick, meaning it happened PROIR to the kick, not post kick action. The second to me happens after (post) kick. Am I way off base here or just confused wiht the meaning?

Re: Read it R E A L S L O W
 

Sorry Andrew, I didn't realize I was going to fast for you! Let me slow it down a bit just for you!

My point, I thought, was fairly straitforward. While we now have PSK, it does not appear to be written the same as the NCAA Rule. I believe that this may cause some serious confusion among officials who work both codes!
Hence we need to be careful NOT to assume it the same was as the NCAA rule!

In my example plays, the first play is a concern as under NCAA it would be enforced under PSK. However under NFHS rules it appears on the surface that since the foul did not occur ...during the scrimmage kick...rather it occured BEFORE the scrimmage kick it is questionable if the foul would be enforced under PSK.

The second example play is a bad example for the point I was attempting to make. By reading the NFHS rules it appears this play as I wrote it, is a previous spot foul under both codes!

Thank you Andrew, for pointing out my error!

Either you are being misinformed or missing this point.
The foul need only occur during a play in which a scrimmage kick occurs not just while the kick is in the air beyond the NZ.

No timing involved. If all the remaining criteria is meet, you have PSK enforcement.

You didn't even read it, KWH!!!
 

Sorry, KWH, but I disagreed with you because you stated that Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage and according to how the new rule is written you have PSK enforcment. Not true since this didn't happen on R's side of the expanded neutral zone (as you yourself stated in the rule).

I also disagree that timing is not a factor as Theisey implies. Again, going to the rule as KWH has stated, the foul must happen "during a scrimmage kick."

When I read the rule as posted, it is the same as NCAA, possibly worded a bit differently. Here's what I know about NCAA PSK and if you read them both they're the same...

To have PSK enforcement 5 variables MUST be met.

1. Foul must be DURING a kick other than a try OR FG attempts in OVERTIME periods.
2. Foul must be DURING a scrimmage kick which crosses the
NZ
3.Foul must occur 3 or more yds beyond the NZ
4. Foul must occur BEFORE the end of the kick
5. A(K) must NOT be in possession of the ball at the end of
the down

Re: Re: Penalty Enforcement???
 

My question is when does possession change? Under the previous rule the ball stayed in team possession of K until R secured player and team possession.

If team possession changes when the ball crosses the neutral zone the concept of "clean hands" would not apply becuase the ball already belongs to R.

If that is so, the situation presented is a double foul. A double foul is a "do over" back to the previous spot.

But the previous spot was before change of possession, surely that cannot be possible because you would give the ball back to K.

So my guess is the spot of enforcement would be the spot where R took possession, penalties offset, first and ten for R.

Now I understand why the rules makers did not want this change!

Re: You didn't even read it, KWH!!!
 

Where did you get your definitions for numbers 1 and 2.
Here are the equivalent two definitions right out of the NCAA 2002 rule book.

1. During scrimmage kick plays other than a try.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the NZ

Note it refers to a "play" not the actual timing of the kick.

If you are telling me that the NF definiton is different than this, I say they messed up the wording.

Theisey- if NCAA says "During a scrimmage kick play" then I misunderstood the rule and you're correct- NFHS does appear different. We'll have to see how it's actually worded once it's posted.

that's what it says.
If interested, go to this link: http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf
and open rule 10 (page FR-121) you can see the wording.

There should be no reason for the NF wording to be any different, but if the wording is, I see problems.

I see it- and they define scrimmage kick play as beginning with the snap.

I'm looking at the rules from an experimental state from last season...

http://www.khsaa.org/football/2002/clinichandout.pdf

The way it's worded here is confusing. In 10-4-3 they specifically say "during a scrimmage kick play". Then later in the rationale and notes they leave out the word "play". Big difference!! I wonder if they'll add the definition for "scrimmage kick play".

Yes, I did read it Andrew. And then I corrected my mistake!
 

Andrew, as I stated in another post (eight posts above this one (or two above the one in which you jumped my sh*t))...

The second example play is a bad example for the point I was attempting to make. By reading the NFHS rules it appears this play as I wrote it, is a previous spot foul under both codes!

I made a mistake when I used the two lineman on the line of scrimmage as an example. I also corrected it by saying that this would be previous spot enforcement.
Thank you for correcting me twice! Hoewver if you had read my follow up post you would see I corrected my error!
Thanks again

[Edited by KWH on Jan 17th, 2003 at 02:16 PM]

100% Correct, Tom
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Theisey

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey I certainly hope the rule wording does not say what you just quoted about. if it does, then the NF rules people missed the boat on this change. A holding call against a flyer could very well be 7 to 10 yards down field and the kick hasn't even been made yet. What you just said than disqualifies that from being a PSK foul. That isn't PSK as the NCAA defines it nor should it be how the NFHS defined it.

REPLY: This is the thing I've been most concerned about since first reading about the Fed's ideas about PSK. Whereas the NCAA has something called a "scrimmage kick play," the Fed has to try to force-fit PSK into some sort of exception to typical "loose ball play" enforcement. And to stipulate that R must have "clean hands" prior to the scrimmage kick crosses the expanded neutral zone adds serious mechanics issues into what is already a rather weildy rules issue. PSK enforcement should include the interval between the snap and the kick as long as all the other PSK criteria are met.