Ye 'ol Kicking Game

[JMN]

Here's one for you guys:

NFHS and NCAA. Tie game. Late in Q4. The crowd is louder than you've ever heard them. A has just tied the score at 28-28. As you line up for the kickoff, you're thinking ON-SIDE, ON-SIDE, ON-SIDE!

Sure enough, your dream comes true. K kicks the ball (from the A40)in the air. At the B45; A) A81 who is normally a =fast as the wind= wide receiver races downfield, catches the ball at the B45 (there was no B player in position to catch the ball) and proceeds to the end zone for an apparent touchdown, B) B44 waves the fair catch signal and catches the ball at the B45. He is then leveled by A59, fumbles the ball which is recovered by B22 and run down the sideline for an apparent touchdown, C)B13 is attempting to field the ball, but is knocked down by A15 who was blocked into him by B20. The ball glances off of B13 and is recovered by A89.

Whatcha got in each scenario? Consideration for penalties, rule applications, and your explanation to the coaches.

[Matt-MI]

Nightmare is more like it! I only do NF so I switched all senarios to K & R.
A) KCI. K cannot touch the ball unless it has been grounded or touched by R.
B) Ball is dead with R's fair catch. PF on K59. R 1/10@A40.
C) K's ball. First touching by K is ignored because of the block by R20.

I'll have to check my rule book tomorrow as I left it at work.

[ABoselli]

In all three, R is awarded a free kick that can score a FG as that is one of their choices in KCI (a and c) and after the roughness penalty is enforced on the hit after the fair catch.

Bad play by K in all three. I'd tell the K coach how poor a job he has done in preparing himself and his team for this critical juncture. He should feel shame, shame, shame. I'd tell the R captain all about the 15 yards he gets for the roughing from the spot of the FC, the awarded fair catch at the R45 and the awarded fair catch at the spot where the kid was blocked into the receiver (no yardline given) but it's up to the coaches to know that they can free kick from here. If they ask, I'll tell 'em.

No time should have elapsed on the game clock. Maybe one tick where the kid actually caught the ball.

[bigwhistle]

NCAA rules:

A. It will be A's ball at the B45. It went 15 yards and became a free ball. The free kick could not be advanced once caught by the kicking team.

B. It will be B's ball at the A40. The ball became dead when caught after fair catch signal. Therefore B's subsequent recovery of the apparent fumble and run to end zone would not count. There would be a 15 yard P/F against A for tacking the man who made the fair catch.

C. It will be A's ball at the spot of the recovery. The possible KCI is not applicable because the Team A player was blocked into the receiver by a Team B member. Therefore the ball is live since it had both traveled 15 yards and had been touched by Team B.

[ABoselli]

Woops - got my B's and A's mixed up. (Use K and R next time). R pushed K into the receiver, so play on! A's ball at the spot of the recovery.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by JMN
Here's one for you guys:

NFHS and NCAA. Tie game. Late in Q4. The crowd is louder than you've ever heard them. A has just tied the score at 28-28. As you line up for the kickoff, you're thinking ON-SIDE, ON-SIDE, ON-SIDE!

Sure enough, your dream comes true. K kicks the ball (from the A40)in the air. At the B45; A) A81 who is normally a =fast as the wind= wide receiver races downfield, catches the ball at the B45 (there was no B player in position to catch the ball) and proceeds to the end zone for an apparent touchdown.

Using NFHS rules:

Kick Catching Interference. Regardless of if a player for R (or B) was in position to make the catch. If K touches a kick before it is grounded, we have a foul.

Was it so loud the players couldn't hear the whistle or don't these officials know the rules? The ball is dead the moment A/K possessed it. They are not allowed to advance a free-kick but the results of the action on the field is that they retain possession -- for the moment. However, B/R will probably accept either a 15 yard penalty for KCI from the previous spot and replay the free-kick down OR an awarded fair catch at the spot of the interference foul.

B) B44 waves the fair catch signal and catches the ball at the B45. He is then leveled by A59 and fumbles the ball which is recovered by B22 and run down the sideline for an apparent touchdown

Fair Catch is legal. R can fair catch any kick in flight.
This hit is then a dead-ball foul. The ball is dead the moment R possessed/caught the ball. All that advancement by B22 is nothing more than a rules happy game official's delay of game foul because A59 can't fumble a dead-ball and B can't advance a dead ball.

The penalty for the dead-ball hit foul will be enforced from the yardline where A/R possessed the ball. 1/10 for R after the 15 yard dead-ball foul.

C)B13 is attempting to field the ball, but is knocked down by A15 who was blocked into him by B20. The ball glances off of B13 and is recovered by A89.

Was the kick grounded or in flight? Regardless, we ignore the fact that A15 ran into B13 because he was pushed into him by another B/R player. If it had been in flight and K had not been blocked into R, it would have been a foul for KCI. If it had been grounded and K had not been blocked into R, we cannot have KCI but MAY have another foul if the block that knocked R down was illegal or if he held R to knock him down. The KCI rules only apply to a kick in flight.

If A15's action are not illegal, we have a live kick and the team that recovers will get a new series of downs due to R's touching. Team A/K will have the ball 1/10 where ever the recovered the ball (They may NOT advance it after recovering).

Whatcha got in each scenario? Consideration for penalties, rule applications, and your explanation to the coaches. [/B]

How'd I do. In any case, one or the other of the coaches isn't going to be happy.

In A, Coach A/K isn't going to be happy. Not only will he not get the Touchdown, he probably won't get to keep the ball. I would do my best to explain to the coach that K cannot touch a free-kick in flight. The only time K can touch ANY kick in flight is if the kick is a scrimmage kick and no R player is in position to catch the ball. Also a free kick is like a scrimmage kick in that the moment that K possesses the ball, it becomes dead. It is still a kick.

In B, the coach will probably rip his kid a new one and I won't have to do much explaining except possibly to say that the ball was possessed and became dead. It wasn't a muff.

In C, I would do my best to explain that we can't have a foul on R if K blocks him into the R punt receiver.

[Edited by mikesears on Jan 9th, 2003 at 07:08 AM]

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Aboselli,

Please tell me you were only joking about telling the coach how bad of a job he has done preparing his kids?

Its not an officials job to worry about how the coach prepared his kids for this play.

[ABoselli]

You mean you don't give running commentary to the coach on how you think he's doing?

Me - "Gee coach, a pitchout on 4th and goal at the 2? That was below average play calling - you new?"

Coach - "Thanks for the input, sir. That was a pretty bad play call given the penetration the defense has been getting all day. I'll try to do better next time - maybe a naked bootleg or something."

[JMN]

Mike Sears,

You covered it coast to coast. GOOD JOB!!

AB, try telling the coach that his fly is open. That always provides just the couple of seconds that you'll need to make your way down the sideline for the chase that will ensue after you tell the coach about his bad calls! -lol-

Also, I hope that you're in shape to hop the fence.

[ABoselli]

Haven't met a head coach yet I couldn't outrun!

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by JMN
Here's one for you guys:

NFHS and NCAA. Tie game. Late in Q4. The crowd is louder than you've ever heard them. A has just tied the score at 28-28. As you line up for the kickoff, you're thinking ON-SIDE, ON-SIDE, ON-SIDE!

Sure enough, your dream comes true. K kicks the ball (from the A40)in the air. At the B45; A) A81 who is normally a =fast as the wind= wide receiver races downfield, catches the ball at the B45 (there was no B player in position to catch the ball) and proceeds to the end zone for an apparent touchdown,

NFHS. My mantra to my crew before an apparent onsides, "the ball MUST go ten yards AND it MUST touch the ground." The ball never touched the ground, even though it travelled the requisite ten yards. The clock should have never started. Many NFL teams and some college teams now use a "pooch" kick where the ball is kicked into the ground and bounces up. That way the ball can be recovered after the ten yards while in the air.

B) B44 waves the fair catch signal and catches the ball at the B45. He is then leveled by A59, fumbles the ball which is recovered by B22 and run down the sideline for an apparent touchdown,

When B44 caught the ball the play was dead. A59 then commits a dead ball foul not kick catching interference. It does not matter whether the whistle was blown or heard as a whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead. B22's action is a waste of time but the whistles should have blown to stop his run. After enforcement of the penalty if there is a kicker with a good leg, B now in possession of the ball can choose to attempt a field goal.

C)B13 is attempting to field the ball, but is knocked down by A15 who was blocked into him by B20. The ball glances off of B13 and is recovered by A89.

Good recovery by A89. Blocking is ignored.

Whatcha got in each scenario? Consideration for penalties, rule applications, and your explanation to the coaches.

[bigwhistle]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
Many NFL teams and some college teams now use a "pooch" kick where the ball is kicked into the ground and bounces up. That way the ball can be recovered after the ten yards while in the air.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ed,

Grounding the ball so that it can be recovered while in the air is not necessary in NCAA (and I believe NFL, but I have no accurate knowledge on these rules). As long as the ball has gone 10 yards (NCAA) it can be caught be the kicking team and will be their ball at this spot. This of course goes with the assumption that the receiving team halo was not violated in the process.

The grounding of the ball which you mentioned does 2 things for the kicking team. First of all, it does away with the halo and any rules regarding it. It also does away with the receiving team's ability to call a fair catch. Therefore, the ball is free game as long as it has travelled 10 yards.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by bigwhistle

Ed,

Grounding the ball so that it can be recovered while in the air is not necessary in NCAA (and I believe NFL, but I have no accurate knowledge on these rules). As long as the ball has gone 10 yards (NCAA) it can be caught be the kicking team and will be their ball at this spot. This of course goes with the assumption that the receiving team halo was not violated in the process.

The grounding of the ball which you mentioned does 2 things for the kicking team. First of all, it does away with the halo and any rules regarding it. It also does away with the receiving team's ability to call a fair catch. Therefore, the ball is free game as long as it has travelled 10 yards. [/B][/QUOTE]

That is a difference between NCAA and NFHS.

You brought up a good point I had neglected to think of before, the fair catch. I knew R could fair catch but the pooch kick instantly removes that possibility. Of course, NFHS does not have a halo but kick catching interference also gets removed on a pooch kick.

[STEVED21]

A) KCI. The ball must touch the ground. The exception only applies to scrimmage kicks.

B) Fair catch followed by 15 yard late hit. Options after the fair catch still apply.

C) A's ball as A was blocked into B