Okay JimNayzium.....

[BktBallRef]

...what happened in this week's game?

[BktBallRef]

Well, first, I disagree with your granddad. Not having 7 men on the LOS is the wing officials' call, not the referee. At least, that's the way we work it.

As for the LJ getting caught on the inside, I have had it happen twice in my career. Both times, I had to cheat in and got caught. But now that we're working wider, I'm not in a position for it to happen. I'm sure you're frustrated by the play but I'm pretty positive that the LJ didn't do this on purpose. I'm also sure that he probably learned something on this play.

Also, by your comments about the flag for the chinstrap, I'm guessing this is probably an inexperienced official. However, he was correct by rule. All straps must be buckled, no matter how many buckles or snaps are on the strap. They must all be snapped. I think most veteran official would warn the TE to snap it after the play, unless one side was not snapped at all.

It's hard for me to understand why you would refer to the officiating as poor, just based on these two situations. Sounds like the play was pretty poor, which always makes it more difficult for the officials to look very sharp. JMHO.

[BktBallRef]

The referee and the umpire count the offense. If they have 11, they signal with a fist. The wings now know that there are 11 O players. They simply count how many players are in the backfield.

[Mike Simonds]

I noticed that most college and high school officiating associations are moving towards the wider mechanics. The wing officials start at the sideline and then officiate in. Sounds like the line judge in your game was positioned too close. In a high school game our line judge would never start at the numbers. Like an old timer explained once: its easier to move forwards than backwards, but if you do get caught retreat backwards and into the backfield and let the runner get by you.

Do you run a balanced or unbalanced line? In Hawaii, all associations are required to use the following mechanics for the LJ and HL:

4 linemen on my side of the center - Hold hand on side of face.

2 linemen on my side of the center - Pat face with hand.

Widest player is off the line - Punch arm towards backfield.

If each side has 3 linemen next to the center - HL and LJ point to each other.

As for the equipment foul, if the chin strap got unbuckled by contact during the last play, the officials should tell the player to buckle it during the dead ball. A penalty seems too severe in this case.



[Edited by Mike Simonds on Oct 6th, 2002 at 08:55 PM]

[snrmike]

A wing being on the numbers during a varsity game is pretty poor mechanics. I have had it happen to me on a couple of occasions during lower level games. As a result, it taught me a hard lesson and I learned about staying in my proper position during varsity games.

Mike Simonds is absolutely correct about the unbalanced formations too. There are more things for wing officials to consider than just counting the backs. My son plays inside LB for a D-1AA school. His complaint is that officials frequently miss those OPI calls on unbalanced lines because they're too busy counting backs.

Giving the officials an excuse to officiate poorly because play was ragged is kinda weak, doncha think? Those are exactly the kinds of games officials are hired for. I'm not disagreeing that they're tough games and harder to ref, I'm saying that for those types of games, we have to bear down and make the right calls - and use proper discretion in the types of calls we make.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by JimNayzium
Wow, my fan following precedes me...hahaaha....

1. Where should a line judge be on a play coming towards him. My grandad trained officials for thirty years, and he said two things: One, you can always tell a white cap is no good if he misses FIVE backs . . .

Have to agree with others here. This is the wings call, not the R's.

and TWO, you can always tell a line judge is no good if he lets the ball get between him and the sideline.

ON the crucial third and eight while my team was leading by one point in the fourth quarter with two and a a half minutes left the line judge actually blocked our cornerback on a swing pass. This block occurred at the numbers, so don't anyone tell me my team was not behind their line and forced this guy out that far.

It was a bubble sreen laser pass to the inside receiver of Two wideouts. Our press corner beat his block by the offensive player and was in perfect shape to make a shirt tackle for no gain, but the line judge just stood there on the numbers as the ball was thrown right towards him, caught five yards from and he stayed there like a tree, which the receiver had the savvy to use him as a pick and go around him up the sideline for a gain of...you guessed it eight yards on third and eight.

As others have said, hopefully, he learned something from it If it happened several times, then the wing guy is a little TOO confident in his abilities. I agree he SHOULD NEVER let it happen. If I were the R and saw it happen, I'd tell him to move to the sidelines.

Maybe he was out there because he was tired of hearing from the coaching staff

The same judge later on our game winning drive on fourth and four after we had made five yards, called my tight end for having his chin strap unbuckled...My tight end had had his buckle broken the previous play and still had one of two lower snaps snapped. This referee gives no equipment warning or timeout, just a flag with one minute left in the game after an exciting fourth and four conversion, he calls it back ...

In my area, this is a dead-ball foul. Should never have let the snap occur.

[QUOTE]
for equipment violation when the kid had it snapped, just not both done.
[QUOTE]

As other have stated, this is still an equipment violation.

[QUOTE]
Certainly, he could have seen it, and then made the player go out the very next play..why call it in the heat of battle like that...well i asked him, very loudly, and he responded, " Coach I 've warned number five three times this quarter about his chin strap, sorry but I cannot put up with a player ignoring me like that."

To which I politely responded, " That's all fair and good Mr. Referee, but what does it have to do with my tight end, number TWENTY FIVE that you just flagged for his chin strap." To which he replied, "It was number FIVE." To which I replied, "You mean this number FIVE," And my number FIVE was right be me, not even in on the play.
[QUOTE]

Even the most experienced guys can have problems with uniform numbers, ESPECIALLY on the wings. If you knew who it was, "one-upping" the official probably wasn't the best solution to the problem. In fact, I think that contributes to more problems.

C'mon, give me some love here guys...This is pretty bad isn't it.

FOR the record we lost 23 to 14, they scored very late after we tried hail maries and stuff...it was a SIXteen fourteen game really.....

And for the record we should have won 35 to nothing. My offense fumbled....get this NINE times. We had three hundred and sixty yards offense on sixty plays in the game....NINE fumbles, we lost seven of them.

So to the referees out there, just know I am not blaming this poor call by the official for our loss. I am just under the opinion that is was a horse crap call to make. It however, was not the reason we fumbled NINE Times....

I always appreciate coaches who don't blame the officials. However, from your description of the problems, I can only see two.

1. Not penalizing the equipment foul as a dead-ball foul.

2 A wing getting beat to the outside.

[snrmike]

...If the equipment infraction wasn't caught and whistled dead before play started, it isn't a foul.

That cost ol' Jim here a big play. However, they may have gotten that first down and fumble #10 may have occurred. Look at it this Jim, the wing just saved you from yet another fumble!!!! (LOL)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by snrmike
A wing being on the numbers during a varsity game is pretty poor mechanics. I have had it happen to me on a couple of occasions during lower level games. As a result, it taught me a hard lesson and I learned about staying in my proper position during varsity games.

What you don't realize is that Jim does not coach at a public high school. He coaches at a small private school. My guess is that the booking agent does not send a varsity crew to work the game. There are probably a varsity official or two on the field but my guess is that Jim is also seeing some less experienced officials as well. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong but I bet that's waht's happening.

Mike Simonds is absolutely correct about the unbalanced formations too. There are more things for wing officials to consider than just counting the backs. My son plays inside LB for a D-1AA school. His complaint is that officials frequently miss those OPI calls on unbalanced lines because they're too busy counting backs.

Well, I don't know who works your son's games but I can count the backs with just a two second glance. It's not brain surgery. I wasn't addressing ineligibles. I was addressing illegal formations. We count backs to know whether the formation is legal or not. If the R has 11 O players, and I've got 4 backs, this formation is legal. No need to look any further. Then we look for covered players.

Giving the officials an excuse to officiate poorly because play was ragged is kinda weak, doncha think? Those are exactly the kinds of games officials are hired for. I'm not disagreeing that they're tough games and harder to ref, I'm saying that for those types of games, we have to bear down and make the right calls - and use proper discretion in the types of calls we make.

I wasn't attempting to give "the officials an excuse to officiate poorly." I was simply pointing out that it's difficult to look sharp in poorly played games. Sorry if you don't agree.

[snrmike]

Sometimes we (on my crew) look for excuses when we perform poorly. Those performances seem to happen during poorly played games. More decisions, more opportunities to make a mistake.

That's why we need to bear down.

Don't be sorry. It's your duty to state your opinion.

[mikesears]

It is obvious to me that you have a sense of humor and that you care about the game. That's more than I can say for some coaches (and sadly, yes, even some officials ).

Anyway, I think you are always going to get a mixture of good and bad, experienced and inexperienced, those who hustle and those who are lazy. Resolving it? I don't know. Hopefully, officials will learn from mistakes and correct them.