Taking A Knee
 

We've all been there when a team is winning and they plan on taking a knee. Typically the HC will tell you that they are going to take a knee.

When you know they are going to do so, do you say anything to the defense?

IF I say anything it's something to the effect of "be cool everyone".

I tell the defense that "they're taking a knee".

If A doesn't, then I blow it dead and issue a misleading tactics penatly.

This is an annual topic.

Some say nothing, some find a way to penalize A, some shut it down anyway, some say "be smart, be cool, if he takes a knee don't hit him, etc."

Then we argue about it.

NEVER tell the defense what to do. Go into EVERY kneeling situation as if the offense is going to fake it. This might only happen to you once in a lifetime, or never, but if you aren't ready and/or you've told the defense what to do, then any fallout is your fault.

AT MOST - tell them something like, "If they take a knee, no nonsense." Or "Don't hit anyone after the whistle, boys." AT MOST.

At youth ball, you might want to be more specific, but unless the league has a sportsmanship rule forbidding fake knee-plays, you better preface your warning with IF.

I always ask and if they tell me they are taking a knee I am telling everyone. If they fake it I am blowing it dead and flagging them for unsporting behavior.

When Team A tells me that they are taking a knee, I tell Team A that they still have to block and Team B to stop on the whistle. I don't want a situation where A bobbles the snap and Team B would have had a chance to regain possession, but we told them to play differently.

Clearly we have 2 schools of thought here:

1. Facilitate a smooth and injury-free end of the game by publicizing A's intention to take a knee, and penalize A if they fail to follow through. The rationale for this policy is game management and player safety.

2. Never tell players what to do or put a team in a position where it cannot execute an otherwise legal play. The rationale for this policy is that the rules don't change at the end of a game.

Both rationales are legitimate, though obviously the policies are incompatible and neither finds support in the rule book. The best approach would be to consult your local association, find or establish an association policy for games in your area, and follow that policy.

So, basically you invent a rule to cover your own game mismanagement?

First off ... why would you ask? When do we ever ask the teams what the next play will be?

Second - if you tell defense not to play, and the ball is mishandled, you've put them at a disadvantage.

Third - if for some reason there is a reason offense needs to keep playing in what appears to YOU to be a knee situation, and you ask, and they say no - you've put THEM at a disadvantage. (Perhaps they are up by 6, but must win by 10 to make the playoffs)

Fourth - what if (3) above is true, and all week they worked on a fake-knee play for this VERY scenario ... now you've eliminated that option.

Granted 99% of the time you've done no harm. But it's the one time in 100 where your mismanagement of the situation affects the game in a negative way. No need to put yourself or the teams in this situation.

Just out of curiosity --- in what way is #2 not supported in the rule book? And a note - you are implying that if you use #2 you are failing to facilitate an injury-free end of game. I don't believe that to be true. If offense actually does take a knee, and we've either done nothing or said, "If they take a knee, nothing after the whistle!!" or somesuch - I don't think there's a very strong chance for an injury. I would say the opposite is more likely. Tell the defense to relax, and when offense runs a play, you've got 4 defenseless DL's on their backs.

We ask the coach if they are taking a knee, then we tell the defense they are taking a knee. My umpire does tell the defense not to fire out, if the offense does not take a knee we shut it down (happened about 4 weeks ago). Then we penalize the offense for deception. Almost never a problem and what works for us.

Peace

Well, um, the rule book (or the manual) doesn't say to do it this way. I'm not saying that they both violate the book, just that the book doesn't decide between them.

Look, all I'm saying is that they're both very common ways to handle the end of a game. I suspect that #2 is more common the higher one works.

Wasn't really arguing with you - you and I usually see eye to eye. I think number 2 is completely supported by the rulebook. If the rulesmakers wanted us to behave differently at the end of the game vs the rest of the game, they would say so. The rules apply to the entire game, otherwise they are worthless.

I totally agree with your 2nd paragraph.

Wow. I should have never unignored you. Post the rule for "deception" again and tell me how it applies. Nevermind, I know you won't - you'll just resume-whip me instead. Love the "almost never a problem" though. Great mechanic. Two choices - one is to use the same rules all game, the other is "almost never a problem" and not supported by rule. Does it surprise anyone which your crew chose? To those supporting this side of the argument, I truly believe JR's support of it should have you all thinking twice. :)

Everything is not about the rules makers. The rules makers are not the ones that hire us or give interpretations for each state. Just try to call the NF and they will tell you to direct all rules questions to your state. And what we do for example is not about the rules makers, it is about what is custom and expected where we are when the game is clearly over.

Peace

I agree this is good. I usually don't say anything and I officiate the "kneel down" just like any other play. It is not our job to get involved with a play call because no matter what play is called at the line, the offense has every right to audible to another play.

For those others who get involved and shut it down. What do you do if the offense calls, "pitch right"? The defense hears it and aligns their formation to cover the run. The offense snaps and throw a deep pass for a TD. Anybody shutting that down for deceiving the defense into thinking it was going to be a run. Lesson for the defense. Don't listen to the play calling and be ready to go 100% on each play.

I had a game once where it was a "kneel down" call, but the snap was muffed. Luckily for the defense they were firing out at the snap and recovered the ball. Next play they scored the game winning TD. Imagine if I would have intervened and told them not to play.

Rule 1-1-6 Covers this nicely I believe!

ART. 6 . . . The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good
sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

The fake kneel down is not covered specifically in the rule book but it stinks of Wrong ball and Where's the Tee? They are both types of deception that is disallowed as is hidden ball if you must have a live ball one to hang your hat on!

1-1-6 is not in there to tell us to invent rules, or to officiate differently in one part of the game as opposed to the rest of the game.

1-1-6 is baseball's rule 10-1-C. What if a helicopter lands on the field during a live ball (or a Chick Fil A Cow)? What if an earthquake occurs during a play. What if a buffalo runs onto the field during a live ball? The TRULY unforeseeable instance.

The fake kneel down is not covered... neither is yelling Pitch Right and throwing a bomb. Both are legal. (Incidentally, Wrong Ball and Where's the Tee ARE covered by the rules).

Shutting these down is imposing your own sense of sportsmanship on the game where it is not appropriate. (And honestly, the scenario of the muffed snap where you've told the defense to relax is a FAR more common problem with the philosophy of telling the defense not to be ready or not to hit anyone).

"Never" and "Every" ???

When's the last time you saw a 56-6 game end with the offense taking a knee and the defense going balls out to make the tackle?

You don't see it because the officials told the guys that "they are taking a knee."

When the situation calls for the announcement, announce it.

If you don't know if the siutation calls for it, then you have a lot of work to do.

It's not our job to tell players what to do or to help coach. It's our job to apply the rules. If a team fakes a kneel down that is not our responsibility nor our fault and if a kid hauls off and whacks someone or otherwise does something wrong or flagrant THEN we go into action.

Preventative Officiating

If the game's been chippy and the you know that's it's a kneel down situation, yet you let the above happen without some prior notification..... then you should be relegated to working 2nd grade ball in a two-man system.

And if you've done your job correctly in the other 47 minutes, which I know is impossible for you, then you shouldn't have to be doing something you haven't done all game long, which is trying to rein in the game when it's too late and letting the other team know what's about to happen.

At most, we should simply say, "If they take a knee, take it easy" I grant you that 56-6 is likely a lot more relaxed than the other situations described, but we, as officials should be ready. Heck, it might not be a "Fake", but might inadvertently develop into a play after a screwed up snap.
Is there a reason to get personal here?

Not really sure what you're saying here... are you implying that in a chippy 56-6 game, suddenly the team up by 50 is unable to block on a kneel down play? PF or USC would still be PF or USC - our "warning" notwithstanding.

This is what I do as umpire..... I'll add a "play smart men"

Again, if you do not do this in your area fine. We do it in ours and it is expected by coaches. So everyone is on board and it works for us. How the game is chippy or not is not the issue. We do it with great success and when we haven't done this and things happen it was expected.

Peace

How are you told to handle when the snap is botched?

We tell them to keep playing football. All we tell them they are taking a knee, we do not tell them to stop playing football. ;)

Peace

We only argue because there's a faction that refuses to admit their wrong!

If you are not smart enough to know the difference between a 56-6 "knee" and a 17-14 "knee", then you would take it personal.

I did not realize that I was conversing with an official that has knows when, where and how a fight is going to break out. You should write a book, because you have all the answers.

While I take the time do do some preventative officiating, you keep spotting the ball two inches outside of the 10 yard line on a long gain....

Because after all, that's what the rule says.

Please expalin to me how many times on TV in either the pros or in a college game you see teams actively blocking or defending a no brainer kneel down at the end of the game?

You don't see it , and you won't see it.

And the reason being is the guys, you are a helluva lot better than we'll ever be, are telling them that "it's a knee".

The players know what to do when they hear that.

What I know that you don't is that preventative officiating starts at the initial kickoff, not the last 35 seconds of the game like you think. I also know English..... "that has knows when".... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is that?

Telling me I have work to do is personal. Saying I'm not smart enough is personal.

Despite the fact that two of us who REALLY don't like each other are on different sides of this, the thread had avoided name calling until you chose to pipe in. I assure you that I'm smart enough to know the difference. I also assure you that even at 56-6, I'm not going to tell the players how to play or what to do. ALL I would do is what I described - which, to me, has NEVER backfired on me. However, on at least 2 occasions, taking your advice would have.

I know for a fact you are dead wrong. Those players know what's coming, and on MOST occasions don't actively block or defend because they know there's a FAR lower chance of any of the things we've mentioned happening. I PROMISE you there are no college officials or NFL officials telling anyone on the field that the offense is taking a knee. To suggest otherwise throws everything else you've ever said into doubt. You could not be more wrong. (And, on this rare occasion, I suspect even JR will agree with me)

Do you do that with each guy on a wing? Or do you go ref/umpire? ;)

I agree. We had this exact same thing happen last night in a JV game. I was running umpire, team a came up in victory formation, I said nothing. B shot the gap, creamed the QB after his knee was down, we flagged him for a PF, marked off 15. Everybody must have got the message, because the next 2 snaps were clean, game over, band played, cheerleaders cheered, and we all went home. :)

Holy crap!! You mean the officials weren't involved in the game until they needed to be? What a concept!!

I know you're kidding, but I've seen both, and hybrids. Personally, the kiddo league I do runs a HL and a R/LJ. Ref counts and makes sure they are set correctly (they have bizarro rules about where the defenders have to start), then starts cheating toward his sideline, watching for initial interior holding and then acting like LJ the rest of the play (HL responsible for LOS infractions all the way across). Worked one very long day with R and U - too much running. HL and LJ, I bet EVERYONE was holding in the middle... I'll never know from there.

I did a JV game once by myself. No one else showed up. It was the best game I was ever involved in from the standpoint of sportsmanship. Early in the game there was either a false start or an encroachment. I told them that I had no clue. They all laughed and we had a do-over. They didn't make a peep and played hard and clean and shagged balls for me and helped each other off the ground. I'm glad it happened. Those kids were more polite and had more fun and it was a cleaner game than I've ever seen.

Sounds almost like what we had to do when we were kids, playing in a neighbor's yard, with zero officials. ;)

The philosophy around these parts is when the offense lets us know they intend to take a knee, we let the defense know as well. Then it's clear to everyone and we avoid the chance of a QB being injured when B is clueless and shoots the gap to cream him just after his knee is down.

Why even let them take the snap and "kneel down"? If some of you are telling the defense to back off and forcing the offense to stick to their original play call, it seems to me a waste of time to even snap it. Just hold the ball in the air and declare the game over because that is essentially what is taking place when you are telling teams not to play any more.

Actually, only "Where's the tee?" is covered in the Case Book. It's covered under Unfair Acts. That rule says the referee can assess whatever penalty he feels equitable.

Officials, evdiently you included, use the same principle to cover the "Wrong ball" play.

So the coach yells, "We're taking a knee," and doesn't.

Please tell me how that's different than yelling "Where's the tee?" or "This isn't our ball!"

And just think, had you said, "Be smart guys, if he takes a knee, don't hit him," you could have used a little preventive officiating and prevented a foul where a kid could have been injured for no reason. :(

He knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Any motard (got called that the other night:D) could see they were in the "victory" formation. He intentionally went after the guy. It's not my job to prevent stupidity.

Okay. Be sure you pick up your check before you head home.

Boy, you really are hard to get along with. Are you like that all the time, or has somebody made you mad? Life's too short to go around acting like a sm*** a** all the time. Lighten up.

And I still read most of the posts. :rolleyes:

He is always like that BroKen. He lashes out at me all the time on the NFHS board.

Sorry I hurt your feelings. But you do have some responsibilities when you step on the field. And if a word to a player or team can do that, there's no reason not to. It's called preventive officiating.

Everybody lashes out at you on the NFHS board. :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn
He is always like that BroKen. He lashes out at me all the time on the NFHS board.

Everybody lashes out at you on the NFHS board.

Now Thats Funny.:D

How about this, I think I picked this up on this forum. What I say when the Offense tells me they are taking a knee, I tell the defense If the QB takes a knee don't hit him, I tell everybody protect yourselves and be smart.

Who said anything about waiting until 35 seconds left in the game to get involved.

Anyone worth their salt is talking to the kids (preventative officiating) throughout the game.

And my approach has NEVER backfired.

I didn't know that only you were able to speak your mind.

You don't like me "piping in" ??? Too bad..... Put me on the ignore list.

How about this scenrio:

YouTube - EL TRYING TO DOWN THE BALL(PENALTY WAVED OFF)

YouTube - MrHeavydutyone's Channel

YouTube - MrHeavydutyone's Channel

YouTube - MrHeavydutyone's Channel

I'm not a coach.

When A tells me they're taking a knee here is what I do.
I get my U's attention and very loudly tell him, "they're taking a knee, my whistle. (I didn't tell the defense anything, but I did tell my U who needs to know what I know) and if anyone else (team B wink, wink) hears, great.
I pinch in about 5 yards closer than my normal spot, when the knee goes down, I get on the whistle heavy and hard, just to make sure action stops. (This is the same whistle I give when QB or HB picks up a bad exchange with a knee on the ground and gets up and starts to run.

That sounds like that is not hard to do. Where did you come up with that? :D

Peace

It is totally different. Just read the comment at the end of the case play you are talking about.

"Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal."

Where's the tee and wrong ball are illegal because they are actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and the snap is not imminent. The coach yelling out "we're taking a knee" does not make the defense think the snap is not imminent because of some sort of a problem....in fact it is neither a problem nor making the defense think that the snap is not imminent.

If you are going to try to say that this is covered by unfair acts at least say that it is something not covered under the rules, don't cite a case play which doesn't support your argument.

So you think the rulebook and casebook is going to cover every possible situation that is possible? If that is what you are looking for, then no one should have to say it is not covered in the rulebook. A better response would be that you do not understand the way rules are made and interpreted. Because most situations will never be covered to your liking if you want something to be spelled out in all with all the possibilities. That is why we are asked to make judgments. We all do not have the same judgments.

Peace

Ahh yes, I don't understand how rules are written. Maybe someday I will be intelligent enough to see that the offense trying to make the defense think that there is a problem and that the snap is not imminent is practically the same thing as an official asking the coach of the offense what type of play they will be running and then the offense not running that type of play. Looking back I must have been crazy to think that those were different.

You know that teams run fake kneel down plays, you admitted that you have seen it on the field. You must have seen a muffed snap before. Anything can happen.

It is none of your business to find out what type of play the offense is planning on running. Don't ask anyone. You can probably realize when it may be a kneel down situation and you can probably realize when A is in a kneel down formation. If you need to say something you can tell the players to "be smart" or "protect yourselves". It is not your job to announce anything to the defense before the snap.

I do not know whether you are intelligent, I just know that because you do not agree with the ruling does not mean it does not fit the spirit and intent of the rule or interpretation covered.

Yes and we shut it down. And it is also spelled out at other levels as well to be illegal. So maybe this is not one of these acceptable fake plays. ;)

It is? I guess we never ask coaches "Are there any unusual plays that we need to be aware of?" You are right; we have no right to know what they run. So much so that we ask coaches before every game to make us aware of plays they might run so we can be prepared for them and rule on them properly. In some cases tell the coach that play is illegal which they are often unaware. So I guess someone must think we have the right to ask them what plays they are running. Better yet, coaches in my area often go out of their way to tell us they are taking a knee. So I guess they gave us that right?

Peace

I guess you think that is the same as asking "what play are you running next?" It could help you officiate in some way so it isn't that stupid....but then you announce what play they told you to the defense and then call a foul if they do not run that play.

What play they are running means nothing to you, therefore it is not any of your business. You have no reason to ask.

That is why I said this

Rule 1-1-6 Covers this nicely I believe!

ART. 6 . . . The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good
sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

The fake kneel down is not covered specifically in the rule book but it stinks of Wrong ball and Where's the Tee? They are both types of deception that is disallowed as is hidden ball if you must have a live ball one to hang your hat on!

Each crew/association will use their best judgment as to how to handle this. Its not something we should get too dogmatic about.

Careful friends...lest our tone becomes counterproductive to learning...

If I asked the coach or he tells me they are taking a knee and then he fakes it, it is my job and my responsibility to make it right!!!!

Why is it hard to understand if you do not want to do something, then do not do it. I am not telling you what to do or really care at the end of the day. I am on a very experienced crew where I am the youngest person in years and I have 15 years in. We do this with great success and we are not alone where I live. If you choose to not ask or care and want the end of the game to end in a PF fest as the videos that were posted show, so be it. We are doing this and it is our duty to find out if a team has given up or is not trying to hurt each other and then give that information. If you do not want to do that, do not do that. Life will go on trust me.

Peace

We let the defense know he is taking a knee to prevent this crap. This is my 19th season of football and I have never ever had a coach question us about telling both sides that they are taking a knee. It seems that we (officials) make a bigger deal out of it than we should.

You are totally off base here...taking a knee at the end of the game is a special situation...it is not like every other play during the game no matter what you think.

Yep or +1

Peace

Exactly !!!

Why let something stupid happen at the end of the game when you have been working hard all game long to prevent it?

Hence, at 56-6 we tell our kids "they're taking a knee".

At 17-14, we are signaling to our crew members to "stay alert, see the ball, the game's not over."

If you asked the coach and he tells you he's running a reverse, and you tell the defense and he changes his mind ... what are your responsibilities there?

Let the coaches coach, let the players play, and let the officials officiate.

In our area the coaches tell us. So they obviously want their players protected. And the other coach has the class to realize the game is over and expect the same in return.

As I someone else said on this topic, it seems like officials (mostly on this page) have more of a problem with this than the coaches at the high school level. Heck at the college level many of the same procedures are followed in my experience as well.

Peace

I have 2 friends that do major college football - 1 Southland, 1 Big 12. I asked them whether they say anything to teams or if coaches say anything to them on a taking-a-knee situation.

One said, "Eff no" to the first question and "If I need a coach to tell me they are taking a knee when they line up in victory, I need a new job."

The other said, "No, never. If we did, it would be frowned upon - these guys know how to act." to the first one, and "No, why would they." to the second.

I have two friends that work the Big 10, one works the ACC and three that currently work the NFL.

They all say they alert the guys. They all tell me that if something happens and it's determined that preventative measures were not taken, they can make other plans for the following week.

Like it has been said before... depends on where you are working...

First of all we are not talking about what they do at the college ranks. We are talking about high school and specifically jurisdictions we work not what the Big 12 or Big Ten does.

But at the college ranks which I work there is some communications as our supervisor is a technical advisor for the Big Ten. Never have I heard that we do not communicate something to the players. Again those are college players and they have a better understanding of the consequences and getting ejected can have a bigger affect on their career.

Peace

I will ask the next time I go to a meeting, but one of my associations have several officials in the Midwest Alliance and even one SEC official as well as 3 NFL officials, one who is an umpire. From my understanding is there is communication with the players on these situations and the official come closer and use preventative officiating.

All this does is say that different leagues, crews and associations handle this differently. This should not be a surprise. We all do not work under the same circumstances or with the same people.

Again if you do not want to do it, do not do it. Why is that hard to understand?

Peace

Understand the concept of preventive officiating, but where do you draw the line to keep from coaching?

You were... You said, "Heck at the college level many of the same procedures are followed in my experience as well." It was this to which I was responding.

I find what I'm being told much more believable (admittedly part of this reason was that I have the actual email from them, and know them personally, and I don't personally know those that you refer to ... ) than the assumption that college and god forbid professional players need to be told that the other team is taking a knee when they line up in Victory formation. Seriously. I see this as a possible issue with 10 year olds, but the older they get, the more they GET it (both the way to act when the other team is taking a knee, AND the more serious consequences should they get a USC or ejection). To say college and pro players need to be reminded is simply ludicrous.

How is it "coaching", when during the last couple of plays in a 56-6 game you are announcing to the players, "He's taking a knee" ??

That isn't coaching....

Coaching is telling an end in the first quarter ( who is obviously supposed to be off the line, and isn't ) to get back because he's covering up his tight end.

What if it is at the end of the first half instead of at the end of the game?

It isn't a special situation. The offense is just running the play that they feel will give them the best chance to win the game. The defense knows the time is about to run out so they have to get the ball back.

This is by far the dumbest thing said in this entire discussion. B is down by 5 points at the end of the game and their only chance of getting the ball back is recovering a muffed snap but the umpire tells the defense to just stand there.

Ok, you want to ask the team if they are taking a knee....pretty stupid, you should be able to figure it out on your own. Same for telling the defense, they aren't stupid. But to tell the defense not to fire out basically means the game is over. You might as well just hold the ball up and walk off the field and stop wasting everyone's time.

No, but "don't fire off," or "don't hit him" would be.
Also, some would say that the "coaching" example you just gave is a perfect example of "preventive officiating."
In both situations you are trying to keep a player from committing a foul.

This thread has ballooned.

My thought is if you are going to tell Team B to play differently because of something Team A told you, you might as well just hold the ball up and end the quarter. Why even go through the motions?

Team B may be holding onto the glimmer of hope that there will be a muffed snap. And in the event that there is a muffed snap, Team B may be handcuffed from the possibility of recovering the loose ball because the officials have interjected themselves into the game.

When Team A tells me they are taking a knee, I tell them that they still have to block, but we will have a fast whistle.

I only talk to Team B if we have had issues leading up to this point that would make me think they would take a cheap shot. But I probably would have already had that discussion prior to the end of the game.

Sometimes there seems to be a breakdown in the understanding of who is responsible for what during a football game. Coaches absolutely deserve our respect and have earned our civility as far as answering, reasonable, questions or clarifying rule matters, but their area of responsibility and control ENDS at the sideline. From there in, it’s our area of control and responsibility and we deserve, and have earned, the respect of those outside the sideline.

Sadly, the place to look for the cause of years of progressive breakdown in some of the behaviors displayed regarding inappropriate interactions from outside the lines may well be in our in OUR own mirrors. When the envelope bursts from the inside, it’s more likely the fault of the envelope, far more often than the inside pressure, because the envelope usually has the power to deflate the pressure long before it builds to the bursting point, and may have chosen to ignore the build up.

The only “absolute” about a football game is that NOTHING is absolute. “One size NEVER fits all”, and never will. Players, coaches and fans share one attribute that officials must never embrace; it's really important and matters to them who is going to win. That competitive edge is a vital, necessary and acceptable part of the game but, unfortunately, at times can cause players, coaches or fans to get carried away and exceed acceptable standards and behavior.

That’s why we’re there; to keep things in balance and insure the rules, and their intent are followed and to insure that whatever pressure builds, it’s kept within acceptable limits. We have been given (almost) absolute authority to accomplish that, and we will be held accountable and responsible for how we dispence that authority.

As for this “taking a knee” question. YOU have to decide what YOU think is appropriate for THAT particular situation, which may be totally different than the last similar situation YOU experienced, much less what might have happened elsewhere with someone else. What players, coaches or fans think should be done about a variety of situations under our control and authority is IRRELEVANT, what matters is how we use the authority we’ve been given to do what WE judge to be appropriate and correct.

It's usually wise to take the opportunity to explain unusual or complicated decisions to sidelines, as long as such discussions can be completed in a civil, respectful manner in both directions.

The other side of the coin giving us all that authority is that we will be held totally responsible for how we apply it. When competitive juices, at times can boil over and adversely affect the rational judgment of others, we (and we alone) are expected and responsible to remain calm, exercise sound judgment and maintain control.

Personally, not that “personally” really matters a lick to anyone but me, but if a Captain or Coach tells me they’re taking a knee (busted plays aside), and the situation calls for taking a knee, there will be no fakes and I am perfectly willing to deal with any consequences my judgments might produce.

I simply say "Nothing stupid, guys" and I set up about 5 yards deep instead of 15. As soon as the knee starts to the ground, I make sure my whistle is in my mouth.

I haven't had anyone fake it yet, but sounds like a good time for an inadvertent whistle. (Note the :p here. Not sure if this means I'm kidding or I'm tweaking those who think preventing bad behavior at the end of a blowout is a terrible idea.)

It's 56-6 and the team with 56 is telling you, we are not going to try to score anymore.

They are going to be relaxed and vulnerable to injury if we let the defense bust their chops.

Same thing if the team with 6 says "we're done".

You really gonna keep that a secret from the defense and let them blast through at the snap?

If you answer yes... please refer to my prior 2nd grade / 2-man comment, because quite honestly, you don't belong working anywhere else.

You seem obsessed with the blowout. This topic (until you brought it in) was not about a blowout. I believe that all of us do understand the difference between kneeling at 56-6 vs 13-12. However, those of us who subscribe to the "If they take a knee, no nonsense" method do not have to change what we do based on the score. JR has already says he does. You have not, so I'll ask - do you give your "He's taking a knee" speech in a 13-12 kneeldown situation?

The problems mentioned with that approach, I think we can all agree, don't exist at 56-6. But at 13-12, telling the defense to play off or not hit ... and/or flagging the offense should they fake it ... BOTH are contrary to the rules and the spirit of the game.

Not that I really care what you say or think (I don't) but why am I concerned about whether or not one team or the other is "relaxed and vulnerable to injury?" They know the rules of football, and they better get ready for a hit when the ball is snapped. If you think it's your job to make sure the offense knows that when the ball is snapped they need to protect themselves, then maybe you need to go back down there to kiddie ball and do some offici-coaching. I prefer to stay up here and play with the big boys, thank you.

Um, I believe you brought up the words never and every.

Wouldn't that include blowouts ??



Whereas, I responded with....

Followed by....

Next time, take a second to read what's been posted. You might see that we agree from time to time.

Then he shouldn't have told me he was taking a knee...or he can call timeout. If he changed he mind I would be fair and tell the defense that he is "running a play."

Now I know where I have seen you officiate...

You are the guy who threw the flag for an illegal shift on the final kneel down play in the 56-6 game I was referring to.

If this is done correctly and with good communications, 99 times out of 100 the coach and/or QB will be mentioning that they are going to a knee. I can tell you with utmost cetainty that if they tell me they're going to a knee and I tip off the D, and they don't go to a knee....there's going to be a flag. And don't start with the crap about for what?? 1) Not following an offical's directive. 2) Using deceit on an opponent. Rule 9-9-3 or a host of others if you wanted to get technical.

I make sure to have my ump tip-off and communicate to the defense that they're going down to a knee and not to do anything foolish.

While he's doing that, I tell the QB to come back and immediately down to a knee....younger HS and youth, I will also tell the coach or have my wing tell the coach.

Never once in 16 years have I had a problem with this...nor, has anyone ever ran anything other than the kneel down. This shouldn't be a big deal....if anything, especially in big rivalry or a monster blowout....this is where you keep things from getting out of hand.

Actually I know many Big 10/MAC/Missouri Valley officials personally (many are my friends in person). So much so that a few have reviewed tapes of games I was involved in. When I worked the State Final one of those individuals was a crew chief in the Big 10. So whether you know someone or not is not the point. I know people too. They still follow the similar procedures. Maybe they use different language or they wait until the "victory formation" takes place, but they do talk to players. I am not talking about people that I know from a far, I am talking about people that know me on a first name basis because we have either been to the same clinics. As a matter of fact the college crew chief has worked or been assigned to work college ball in the Big 10 and other conferences while not being on a regular crew. He asked me to work college ball for years and I finally joined his crew as an alternate. I do not need to email someone; I can pick up the phone and call them.

And if you knew anything about college ball, there are officials that have been doing basic things very differently all over the country for years. The Big 10 does not always do what the Big 12 does or the SEC does not do what the ACC does. And I did not say they do this exactly how we would in high school; I said they have similar interactions.

Better yet I will ask my high school crew chief who has been doing college for a long time and since he is an umpire I will see what he tells me. Because when I worked college the other week we told players things as the winning team was in the victory formation. So I will ask specifically but you will still claim no one does this because you say so.

Peace

I will put it this way. I will put his experience and respect of his fellow official at the high school and college ranks up against what you say any day. Do what works for you; we will do what works for us. Honestly who gives a damn at the end of the day what you do. I do not have to work with you. ;)

Peace

No case play is all inclusive. Even you should know that. If the coach yells that he's going to take a knee to decieve the defense, then that meets the definition of an unfair act.

I don't see how "Be smart guys, if he takes a knee, don't hit him," could be considered coaching. But if that's the issue, then "Be smart guys. Don't do anything stupid," addresses both teams.

It is exclusively, "In the opinion of the Referee" (NF: 9-9-5) that determines what is improper.

Exactly. If in the referee's opinion the coach deliberately tried to deceive the defense, that's all that needed.

HA HA HA Now that was funny:rolleyes:

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

It's really splitting hairs and becomes a tough one with this the way it is put. If they take successive kneel downs...I would say the same to the QB or caoch each time to take 2 steps back and go down...reapeatedly until the whistle. Not to mention....running a play after successive kneel downs is incredibly "bush league" and would probably make for an interesting handshake at the end of regulation.

If a team hurries to the line and tells it's players "spike it" or says "hurry up" assuming they will spike the ball to stop the clock, but then throw a pass...you're caught in la la land as an official. You hurry to get the ball set, get your ump or yourself out of the way and let the cards fall where they do. If the team says outright to ME that they are taking a knee....they better take it or there's some laundry coming out. The game is one of deception and sometimes on-field trickery (hook and ladder play, FI), but using the officials in any way would be an immediate foul on my field.

Under NCAA rules it is not illegal per se but simulating taking a knee causes the ball to become dead.

Under Fed, there is no prohibition against it.