Wrong way scoop & score

[RadioBlue]

First, let me say this did not happen to my crew. (Thank heavens!) Here's the sitch:

1st and 10 from B's 40. On a run, A fumbles and B55 scoops up the loose ball then runs the wrong way into B's endzone. After crossing the goal line, B55 tosses the ball to R who had stopped at the GL. R wisely lets the ball go untouched to the ground in play near the B 2-yard line and no whistles are blown.

Both A & B (apparently the other 21 players knew that B55 had gone the wrong way) scramble after the loose ball. During the scramble, A23 is flagged for a 15-yard facemask foul. The ball is finally recovered by B in B's endzone.

Whatcha got?

Believe it or not, this happened on a Friday night.

[Welpe]

Yikes. Sounds like an incomplete illegal forward pass. Safety.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

After crossing the goal line, B55 tosses the ball to R who had stopped at the GL. R wisely lets the ball go untouched to the ground in play near the B 2-yard line and no whistles are blown.

Or not so wisely... let the ball go untouched, great. And as soon as it hits the ground blow your whistle. Why would you not blow the whistle after an imcomplete forward pass?

[wisref2]

Yes, incomplete pass and illegal forward pass in the end zone for a safety.

Had something similar happen to me a few years back. A1's punt was blocked behind the LOS and was caught by lineman A2 in the middle of a crowd of B players. A2 quickly threw the ball to the ground. Blew it dead for incomplete pass and flagged him for grounding (prevent loss of yardage). Even the rest of the crew (JV game) looked at me like I was nuts until I explained it to 'em. A's coach didn't object, he was just laughing his butt off!

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Or not so wisely... let the ball go untouched, great. And as soon as it hits the ground blow your whistle. Why would you not blow the whistle after an imcomplete forward pass?

I agree. IFP. Does the facemask foul get neglected?

What if B55 had dropped the ball right at his feet after crossing the goal line. How we have a fumble. How does that change the ruling?

Here's how the actual situation was ruled in the game. Safety for A. 15 yards enforced on the ensuing free kick. B kicks from their own 35-yard line.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I agree. IFP. Does the facemask foul get neglected?

What if B55 had dropped the ball right at his feet after crossing the goal line. How we have a fumble. How does that change the ruling?

Here's how the actual situation was ruled in the game. Safety for A. 15 yards enforced on the ensuing free kick. B kicks from their own 35-yard line.

Well ... if R had blown his whistle when he was supposed to, we probably don't have the 15 yarder, but I guess we have to deal with it anyway as there is no "Inadvertant Forgot To Blow The Whistle". (And to those, who like me regularly say, the whistle doesn't kill the play; the play kills the play... I think that in a case like this where it's NOT obvious that the play is over (heck even the R didn't realize it), you do need a whistle and need to be a little lenient on that after-the-play late hit (we probably had several... just didn't know it.)

There's 2 ways to look at this. I probably would have not gone the route you went. Since you didn't blow it dead, and have what seems to be a LIVE ball foul for the facemask - you have offsetting live ball fouls (the illegal forward pass and the facemask) after a turnover. Hope someone way back where still has their bag on the ground.

If you treat the FM as a dead ball personal foul after the play (a bit of a stretch to me since you didn't flag all the other action after the play ended), then you can have the safety and then the free kick from the 35 as described.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well ... if R had blown his whistle when he was supposed to, we probably don't have the 15 yarder, but I guess we have to deal with it anyway as there is no "Inadvertant Forgot To Blow The Whistle". (And to those, who like me regularly say, the whistle doesn't kill the play; the play kills the play... I think that in a case like this where it's NOT obvious that the play is over (heck even the R didn't realize it), you do need a whistle and need to be a little lenient on that after-the-play late hit (we probably had several... just didn't know it.)

There's 2 ways to look at this. I probably would have not gone the route you went. Since you didn't blow it dead, and have what seems to be a LIVE ball foul for the facemask - you have offsetting live ball fouls (the illegal forward pass and the facemask) after a turnover. Hope someone way back where still has their bag on the ground.

If you treat the FM as a dead ball personal foul after the play (a bit of a stretch to me since you didn't flag all the other action after the play ended), then you can have the safety and then the free kick from the 35 as described.

Hey, can you quit saying "you"? I am happy to say I had nothing to do with this play!

Another crew in our area had this play happen and we've been discussing it for a couple of weeks.

Can I pose another "What If"?

What if B55 had entered his own endzone and then peeled back into the field of play and, while at his 2 yard line thinking he had scored a touchdown, flipped the ball to the R? Now we have a fumble at the 2 after a change of possession and the rest of the play happens as described. (B recovers in their own endzone while during the loose ball A is flagged for a PF facemask.)

I say the basic spot is the 2. B retains possession. 1st and 10 from their own 17. Am I correct on that one?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well ... if R had blown his whistle when he was supposed to, we probably don't have the 15 yarder, but I guess we have to deal with it anyway as there is no "Inadvertant Forgot To Blow The Whistle". (And to those, who like me regularly say, the whistle doesn't kill the play; the play kills the play... I think that in a case like this where it's NOT obvious that the play is over (heck even the R didn't realize it), you do need a whistle and need to be a little lenient on that after-the-play late hit (we probably had several... just didn't know it.)

There's 2 ways to look at this. I probably would have not gone the route you went. Since you didn't blow it dead, and have what seems to be a LIVE ball foul for the facemask - you have offsetting live ball fouls (the illegal forward pass and the facemask) after a turnover. Hope someone way back where still has their bag on the ground.

If you treat the FM as a dead ball personal foul after the play (a bit of a stretch to me since you didn't flag all the other action after the play ended), then you can have the safety and then the free kick from the 35 as described.

Except that one fundamental of football is that the only time a whistle makes the play dead is when an IW happens. I think, by rule, you have to treat the FM as a dead ball personal foul even though it doesn't seem quite right. I know what you're saying, though -- all the other hits then were, by rule, dead ball personal fouls. Maybe the difference here is the fact that it was a face mask foul.

It's a shame that the WH was alert enough to go back to the goal line and wait but not be thinking to himself, "if he throws me the ball it's going to be an IFP," cause that's what I would hope I would do.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I agree. IFP. Does the facemask foul get neglected?

No, I don't think it should be...not the personal foul variety anyways. A face mask is always illegal and needs to be penalized. It will just be a DB PF and enforced from the succeeding spot, which it seems is what happened.

What if B55 had dropped the ball right at his feet after crossing the goal line. How we have a fumble. How does that change the ruling?

In this case, fumble, live ball. 1st and 10 for B at the B-15 after the penalty.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

What if B55 had entered his own endzone and then peeled back into the field of play and, while at his 2 yard line thinking he had scored a touchdown, flipped the ball to the R? Now we have a fumble at the 2 after a change of possession and the rest of the play happens as described. (B recovers in their own endzone while during the loose ball A is flagged for a PF facemask.)

Upon my initial reading, this is what I was thinking. I completely missed the IFP aspect.

With that said, for your second version as posted here, it would be B's ball, 1st and 10 from their 15. 10-5-2 (in the 2009 book) notes that the enforcement spot for any found committed by the defense is the goal line when the run ends in the end zone and would have otherwise resulted in a safety.

[Texas Aggie]

Why is "R" at the goal line? Wouldn't it have been BJ?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Why is "R" at the goal line? Wouldn't it have been BJ?

LOL... perhaps the crew didn't know what direction was what either.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

LOL... perhaps the crew didn't know what direction was what either.

I wasn't thinking. It would've been the BJ in the OP, clearly, on a wrong way run. I was thinking about how these things normally go, when we work reverse mechanics after the turnover.