Punt Near Endzone
 

I'm not a football official and am just looking for a quick answer.

What is the key as to where the ball is placed with a punt down near the endzone? Is it where there feet are at the time they touch the ball or is it like baseball and it doesn't matter where the person is only where the ball was touched at the time?

Also does the ball just have to be touched, or in secure possession?

Thanks for helping.

NCAA football rules, it is where the BALL is.

Dont watch much NFL, but I seem to recall NFL is about where the players feet are?

The only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead. The feet play no role in if the ball is considered in the EZ, only the ball matters. We have a rule called "first touching" and that is a spot where the kicking team first touches the ball. That spot might be used or the dead ball spot might be used, which is advantageous to the receiving team. The bottom line is we try to be on or near the goal line so we can determine where the ball goes in the EZ or not.

Peace

You don't mention what ruleset, so mileage may vary, and I'll specifically state that NFL rules are completely different from what I'm about to say.

NCAA rules (and I believe Fed is same or close):
All that matters is the ball. Period. Nothing else. A player laying completely in the endzone that stops the ball from crossing the plane of the endzone is not a touchback. You ask about possession - if the ball is possessed by the kicking team, the play is dead. If not, it's not. So you could have multiple touches by the kicking team - the receiving team (assuming they don't eventually pick up the ball and then get a penalty) will get to pick the most advantages spot of the many touches. Also, if the ball remains motionless and no one is attempting to recover it, it's dead at that point as well.

Hope that answered your question.

Is that FED? Are you saying that in FED, if the kicking team touches it at the 1, and taps it back, then it's touched again at the 4 and rolls to the 2, the only options are the 1 and the 2? Not the 4? Seems odd if that's what you mean. This would mean that once the ball is tapped back, the next guy to touch it could intentionally cause the ball to roll forward at no cost.

That would be correct. If a player jumps from the field of play and is able to bat/toss a ball in the air back, it would not be a touchback.

NFL
Rule 9, Section 2, Article 2

Item 2: If a player of the kicking team touches the goal line with any part of his body while touching the ball, the ball is dead, and the result of the play is a touchback.

Note: The spot of first touching is normally the yard line at which the ball is at when touched. If the first touching occurs while the ball is in the air above or beyond the goal line, and prior to the ball touching the goal line or the ground beyond the goal line, the spot of first touching is deemed to be the spot from which the touching player left the field of play, but in no event inside the receiving team's one-yard line.

Most of us NF rules here. I know you are from Texas, but most people are not exposed to NCAA rules unless we actually work a college game. And unless they specifically want to talk about those levels I answer all questions in FED. Also the OPer is not a football official and was not asking this as a football official, I was not trying to give a rules clinic or get so detailed that I use terms and things that only football officials would understand. So I do not know why you have a hard time understand what was said.

Peace

It's not at all that I had a hard time understanding it... I was trying to learn - all of my FED knowledge comes from you guys, here. This one surprised me. So i guess you are confirming that in my scenario the 4 is not an option? Would you have to rule differently if it was obvious the player was intentionally rolling the ball back to the 1 (would illegal batting cover that?)

Not trying to be difficult, trying to make sure I understood you correctly.

(And I did mention in my response that it was NCAA only and that I THOUGHT Fed was similar ... apparently similar but not identical!)

PS - if I had to suspect anything, I suspect the OP was actually asking about an NFL game - of which I have very little rules knowledge other (again) than what I learn here. Glad to see that the 3 of us have covered all 3 rulesets for him.

I had to read his question again to make sure I did not misread anything that would have affected my answer.

Well the rules on the NF and NCAA level are very similar. Of course NCAA has a different situation as to when a ball is dead in the EZ, but for the most part the rules are the same. I was not trying to get into penalties that are possible with this as well as those are rare and not something you would have to rule on in most plays. You could have illegal batting, but it legal to bat the ball back towards your goal on kick. But just because someone bats the ball does not mean it is illegal either. That is why we have the first touching rule and that spot must be marked and let the play continue for what might result.

Maybe he did think of the NFL, but he is an official in another sport so I suspect that he has some knowledge that most officials here are not pro officials.

Peace

No, Rut's wrong if that's what he's saying (since it's wrong, I'm sure he'll declare that he wasn't saying that :rolleyes:).

NFHS 6-1-6:
If any K player touches a free kick before it crosses R’s free-kick
line and before it is touched there by any R player, it is referred to as “first touching
of the kick.” R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if
there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball
put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching.

6-2-5 has the same language for scrimmage kicks.

Smdh!!!!
 

What did I say that was wrong? I said you can take the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. What I said was very basic. If you want to get into all the situations then that is OK, but not what was asked in the OP.

You did not say anything different than what I said at all. I just did not get into all the scenarios of the rule or when the rules apply or do not apply. And I would not do that considering that is not what the question was about.

Oh, I should have said that if the spot of first touching is one spot and R muffs the ball that R can take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Or should I have said that if the ball is touched first touched and the ball goes into the EZ that if the spot of first touching is in advance of the touch back spot (the 20), R can take the ball at the advanced spot when the ball is declared dead?

Maybe I should have said that R does not have to take the spot of first touching if they advance the ball beyond the spot of first touching?

Or better yet, what about penalty enforcement? What about inadvertent whistles? What about PSK enforcement that might apply to this situation as well?

Sorry but this is why some of you guys amaze me. The question is what we look for to place the ball near the EZ, not what first touching means and all the situations it applies or does not apply. Now we look for a lot of things, but I do not think he wanted to know all the rules or would necessarily understand all the rules as he is not a football official. If a fan asks you a question you start chapter and verse with every situation or rule that applies in your explanation. If you do WOW is all I can say. It only makes me wonder what those you actually work with think of you if that is the case. ;)

The man asked about a how to make a turkey sandwich, he did not ask how to shoot the turkey, how to take the feathers off and where to cut the turkey and store the turkey. My Lord, people here really need to answer the question that was asked, not all the situations all the rules apply.

Peace

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

A punt that enters the EZ is live.

All those words, and you STILL can't answer mbcrowder's question. :rolleyes:

Wow, what a verbose way to avoid the question.

You stated that there are only 2 spots that matter. FIRST touching, and the dead ball spot. Since that differs from NCAA (and is apparently wrong according to mb), I asked you if the ball was initially touched at the 1 and rolls back to the 4, at which point it was touched AGAIN and then rolls to the 2 - does FED only give the 2 options you stated - FIRST touching at the 1, or dead ball spot at the 2 - ignoring the 4. You then railed on me for asking you a question about your answer that didn't jive with what I knew from NCAA, and now you say you were not only not wrong, but ignore the 2nd touch completely again.

Not trying to be a jerk here - I was just trying to understand the FED rule, which apparently you stated incorrectly.

I'm not speaking for Jeff, but I think we all know that there are three options for placing the ball here. The disconnect appears to me to be that the first touch and every subsequent touch by K are referred to as "first touching" in the NFHS. 6-1-6 refers to the possibility "there is more than one spot of first touching".

In your situation, R has the option to put the ball at the spot of first touching (either one) or at the dead ball spot. The ball could end up at the 4, 2, or 1.

Technically, the statement "the only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead" is true. I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble with it.

I guess the suggestion is that you are going to bean bag every spot the ball is touched too? :rolleyes:

I would love to see that reference in a mechanics book or training.

Because it is the internet and there are people that are more concerned with unimportant facts than what was asked. I seriously doubt the OPer even knew what "first touching" was in the first place. I can get into some minor or silly details to from time to time on this site, but this is ridiculous (and funny).

Peace

I don't think anyone's "having trouble with it". I stated right up front that I don't work FED. A simple, "in NFHS, 'first touching' refers to all touches" would have cleared it up.

(Kind of a dumb term for 2nd, 3rd, etc touches, don't you think?)

Hmmm. I was asking you a valid clarification question, and stated flat out that I don't work FED. I promise --- I will fail to ask you in the future. It was not an unimportant fact. Had I read what you posted, then for some reason been asked to call a FED rules game somewhere, I would have messed this situation up. Like I said in the previous post, you could have simply said "every time K touches the ball in FED it's referred to as 'first touching'" ... but no ... you had to be you.

(I hesitate to ask, but I'll risk you being you again in hopes that someone else will answer the question without being a jerk... If you don't bag relevant spots, how would you know to spot this ball at the 4?)

Fair enough. I'm starting to think most of this thread is about personality clashes anyway, so I'm going to bow out..

Yes.

Starting to agree with you, although I never felt I had a clash with JRut in the past. How does it go? Lah me!

I do not know what you do or don't work or have worked in the past. I have working knowledge of many rules as I work multiple levels.

And if you are asked to work a FED game and you do not use a rulebook to learn a rule, you are in bigger trouble than I would have ever thought. I was answer a question for a person that does not work football, not to clarify something for you. It is not my responsibility to give you rules to understand. I will bet I work more sports and levels than you do and it is my responsibility to learn rules, not anyone on this board. I am even having to learn some NCAA Rules that I have never had to apply because of a position change and I have never come here for clarification. That is my responsibility to learn. Maybe you need people to hold your hand, I tend to look in other places.

No, because that is not how I understand the rule or how I enforce the rule or explain the rule. Never have and never will. There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

You have made this entire thread about you and what you think I should have said to help you out? And you did not start the thread or really need me to explain a rule to you. But I am the jerk? I am the one with the problem? That is very rich for sure.

Peace

Rut,

although I've vowed to not get in the middle of pissing matches here any more, I think here is the problem with your original post.

Quote from MOOfficial:
Quote from JRutledge:
Now, don't you think someone who has admitted to being a non-football official may not understand that there is a possibility of multiple "first touches" and just might assume your statement implies the only touch that matters is the first one since they are operating under standard English rather than football English? Sometimes, you have to remember who your audience is when you answer.

Yes I think he would not know what that means off the bat. But he is an official so he would likely understand there are rulebook terms that are not in the normal English or have meanings he is not familiar with. And if he had a problem with what I said, he can come here and say that.

I also teach a football class (and a basketball class I designed for an organization for the third year starting in October) every year and have been doing it for years now. Most people have never officiated a single sport when they come to the class. We still use the proper terms off the bat and explain the definitions when appropriate if need be.

I think we should let MOofficial speak for himself and what he was confused by or understand. He might not have been looking for a rule as much as a mechanic. After all he did ask about the feet and touching the GL. I give him a little more credit than some here are giving him.

Peace

Aren't we all here to help each other out? You're kind of making a mockery of your salutation, don't you think? I've not attacked you until the post before this (after I was berated and belittled)... so I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic here.

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots? Or am I again misunderstanding you? Sounds like your brethren would view the 4 as a potential spot as well.

I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.

I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

Exactly......

If any K player touches a crimmage kick in this manner (talking about first touching) R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching......"

Too quick for me bison.....

I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

I do not know how many here are Back Judges, but I doubt or have never seen one bean back 5 different spots. You bean bag one and you put the ball at the furthest most point if the kick ends without a return. The same thing on a free kick. You bean bag the spot of first touching in the neutral zone and then you keep officiating. Then whatever is the most advantageous spot is what we are going to put the ball. That is what I am looking for (which was the question) and let my Referee know what is that spot or if the ball is behind the spot.

I think this conversation is asinine. It is silly beyond belief because I would bet that most individuals have not worked the Back Judge position at the level I have and had to make these decisions on a regular basis as I have. Many here are making it complicated by trying to split hairs which the spot is. In almost all the situations that take place the K team touches the ball they are not trying to bat the ball all over the place. If the ball goes toward R's goal they are going to try to keep it going towards that goal. If the ball goes back toward K's goal line K is likely to possess the ball and if they don't it will be pretty obvious where we are going to put the ball.

Is this really that hard?

Peace

He is slowly seeing the light but not admitting it. Obviously he subscribes to the premise that a good offense is a good defense or vice versa. If all else fails, dazzle them with footwork.

Whatever man. I have been doing this a long time and my work on the field speaks for itself. I am sorry I am not overly technical like some here and likely can only prove it on here and not on the field. Thanks for the laugh!!!

I did not lose a single game or position by what those want to think as we are having this conversation. ;)

Peace

JRut...I think the issue here is when given the scenario with K first touching the ball the R1 then the R4 and finally possessing it at the R2, you said R's options were the R1 and R2. Based on your last comment, do you now agree their options are the R1, R2, and R4 and they will obviously take the R4? This could easily happen if a K player tries to bat it back toward their goal line at the R1 and then in an attempt to possess the ball another K players muffs it at the R4 and eventually possesses it at the R2. This isn't K "batting the ball all over the place".

I really do not care anymore. It is your issue, not mine.

I have a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. I am only marking first touching once with a bean bag (as a Back Judge and only having so many bean bags to begin with) and the ball will be place at one spot or the other in most case. If you need someone to give you all the possibilities, then you either do not know how to read the rules (because there are many rules with exceptions and different situations that apply) then I do not know what to tell you. And still the OPer has not said they had a problem understanding what they asked. ;)

Peace

Anyone ever see the episode on Happy Days where The Fonz was uttering.....


"I was wrrrrrrrrrrruuunnnn.... I was wwrruuunnnnnnn....." ???? :D:D:D

He just couldn''t bring himself to admit it.

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

Yeah, that's what he's saying. I KNOW this to be wrong in NCAA, and have been convinced by the other posts here that it's wrong in FED too. Not starting the next play at the 4 is contrary to not only rule but fairness. Ignoring part of the rule is laziness, nothing less.

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you. :D

Peace

Who is everyone else? Everyone in my state? Everyone across the country? Everyone I work with? Who is everyone? Please do not equate a conversation that the average official is not involved in and say everyone else. If that is the case then no one I have ever worked with marks 4 or 5 different first touching spots. Never had anyone suggest that be the case at the college or high school ranks. And if you have actually read this site and payed attention to what people say, they do not bring enough bean bags with them to accomplish the unlikely possibility if the ball is touched mulitple times. If what you suggest is done, then most people here that talk about how many bean bags they have would not be able to bean bag more than one first touching spot and then the end of the kick and then the likelihood for a fumble if one takes place by R after the end of the kick. I am sure you will tell me that the end of the kick spot is not important either as it has other ramifications in the game but 5 first touching spots are crucial.

And you are not aware enough to know where the furthest most spot is? You have to bean bag each spot too? I bet you are one of those guys that need a white and a blue bean bag to determine the end of the kick from a first touching spot too? ;)

Wait a minute, which one is it? You either use every bean bag for every spot or you do not? Oh you throw your hat? Next then you are going to tell me is you use a bean bag too for an out of bounds spot. <a href=http://www.thesmilies.com><img src=http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/angry/duh.gif border=0></a>

I said I was marking one spot for first touching. And if a ball is touched at R's 1 and the ball dies at the 4, kind of easy to figure out where we are putting the ball. And I am not looking for your credibility as I have that were it counts. Sorry, I have never put too much stock in what is said here and worry about my credibility. You are throwing your hat for a mark and you are worried about my credibility? We stopped doing that years ago because it looks silly. But you are worried about my credibility? I have a few things on my uniform that gives me all the credibility I need. ;)

Peace

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops. :rolleyes:

Peace

I don't understand. Please help me understand what you are doing on this play......

Are you throwing a bag at the 1 and then once the touch at the 4 happens picking your bag up at the one and dropping it at the four? Are you simply getting the spot at the 4 without a bag?

I'm mainly a WH, so my bag rarely (if ever) comes off my belt (I had a momentum exception on a kickoff earlier this year, the only time I needed my bag). It is my understanding of the relevant rules that you need *every* first touching spot because R gets its choice of any of them. You also need the end of the kick. I understand that practically only one of the first touching spots will ever be used, but you certainly *need* the one at the four on this play, don't you?

I'm trying to see if we do agree but are saying it different ways. If I'm reading between the lines I think you may give R the ball at the R4 but wouldn't have bean bags at every spot.

I'm a very humble person because I know I have a lot to learn and I make mistakes on the field and in my understanding of the rules all the time. I see a fellow official who I guess does an excellent job on the field and understands the rules and philosophies better than most.

If you are saying R would get the ball at the R2 in this play then you are wrong. This is not a judgment issue or a philosophy issue. The rule is very clear that R will get the ball at the R4 and I think you'll find others agree.

You are correct Rich. If the time between the touching at the 1 and 4 is short and you aren't in too much of a hurry, you might only get the bag down at the 4. If you had already dropped it at the 1 and then it was touched again at the 4, you would either drop a second bag or move your first bag after the play. I've typically heard to get a bag down at each spot of first touching but that isn't always practical or logical. For example, if K touched it at the 20 and again at the 16 and 14, there is no reason to have bags at the 16 and 14. The key is to make sure you somehow have the 4 spotted in a play like this.

But why do you care? You have already told me I do not know what I am doing. And you obviously do not know the way my job is respected on the field. Now we might disagree, but I see no need to continue to prove to you what I know or do not know. You think I am clueless and I am fine with that. What I have done on the field speaks for itself. And the OP still has not come back to dispute a single thing said either way. I told you what I was looking for and what I am going to do. Then you and others want to play games with the rules as if that is really the main thing we are talking about. I think I will go with my three fellow football clinicians on my crew and what they expect me to do. They have never told me to bean bag every single spot that is considered a first touch. It is OK if you do things differently in your parts. BTW, this has nothing to do with the rule; this has to do with the mechanic I am going to use.

Peace

We moved past the OP about 3 pages ago. Why you keep bringing it up is a mystery. You are obviously not going to answer the question - answering it correctly will show you to be incorrect for 3 pages of discussion, answering it again with your same wrong response will merely show you to not know your rules. I KNOW, with near certainty, that we will not get an answer from you. You dodge and dodge, because you, sir, are simply wrong. Your posturing and attacking doesn't change that.

I'm sure it doesn't concern you at all - your ego is big enough that it won't matter, but I'm sure there are several on here who previously respected your posts and felt you were a rather knowledgeable and helpful poster here, and who no longer feel that way at all. I include myself in that group. Defending a clearly wrong position, and refusing to admit you simply made a mistake way back 3 pages ago have cost you a lot of credibility.

But again - your opinion of you FAR supercedes ours, so I'm sure you don't care. I do know that several will now read your responses with considerably more than a bucket of salt.

PS - "Everybody" in my previous post referred to EVERYBODY, except you, who is participating in this discussion. And you who have so much disdain for the use of a hat - what would you use if you ran out of bags? Sorry coach ... didn't get that spot because I think dropping my hat looks silly.

It was the premise the question was answered on my behalf. That might not be important to you, but that is important to me.

Well we all have an ego. If you had the right ego in my opinion, you would accept your take on this and move on. But for some reason you want me to verify what you already think. And yes I have an ego, this is why I have done the things I have done and for the period of time I have. Of course I have an ego and I am going to do what I feel is best based on my training and experience. You even claimed you have no experience at the NF level, but my ego is at issue? Maybe if you had your ego in check you would accept that I have done this longer than you have and do what works. ;)

I did not say my opinion is all that matters. I did not even try to keep score as to who agreed with me or not. I said I told you what "I" am going to do. You do what works for you. If you want to throw 80 bean bags for every touch that is your right. But I find it odd that most people here have always advocated only having a couple of bean bags (even in a recent conversation) and all of a sudden 4 bean bags are to come out for each first touching spot. Based on what "everyone" has said here before, that would not work as they would lose one of the spots if that was an expectation.

I love how you change the discussion from what I said about the hat. I said "we" (meaning our mechanics and philosophy in the area I live and certainly on my crew) stopped using the hat for stuff long time ago. And certainly throw a hat not for a spot of all things. Even if we have a player that goes out of bounds, we do not use the hat for that either. And since you are so worried about coaches, I have never had a coach argue with me or anyone about a first touching spot and a dead ball spot. NEVER!!!! Now that is in 15 years of varsity football and multiple playoff opportunities when they really get heated about stuff. I have heard a lot of complaints, but never an issue with where a spot is marked for first touching. And like I said before, the dead ball spot and the first touching spot is often very obvious from each other. I do not worry about the boogie man that is under the bed because someone on an internet site thinks I should worry about those things. This is not my first rodeo.

Peace

Guys....give it up. You will NEVER get him to admit he was wrong.

Because I am not wrong. ;)

And the fact that a troll had to do so by joining today is telling. If you cannot be man enough to stay who you are, then what are you afraid of? :D

Peace

So are you saying you are going to have a hard time figuring out to put the ball at the 20? :rolleyes:

Peace

Nope...that one goes at the 20 because it is the best spot of first touching for R. It doesn't take away the fact the 14 and 16 are also spots of first touching but you probably don't need to bag them because R is not likely to take the ball at those spots.

You ask which spot they want? Really?

Peace

You claimed prior that any othre touches between the first and the ball becoming dead were not relevant......


OK Mr. Big Time State Finals Back Judge who is an instructor and coordinated may clinics around Chicago......

Do you stand by your claim that the other touches are not relevant?

You cannot figure out where the first touching spot and dead ball spot is? There is only going to be one of each that matter and one spot where we are putting the ball unless there is a penalty.

I am still trying to figure out why you need 8 bean bags to make that determination? Oh, you probably use a white bean bag for one thing and another for the end of the kick. <a href=http://www.thesmilies.com><img src=http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/silly/rollingeyes.gif border=0></a>

Peace

Actually, you were wrong. Despite all your bluster, resume posting, excuses, & insults, you were painfully wrong. It's just you can't admit it. And that's where you tragically fail.

mcomber asked
"So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots?"

and your answer was
"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead."

I only bean bag the first spot, and move the bean bag when the play is dead if I have a better spot of first touching. I not the "best spot" in the same way that I note the yard line if I miss the spot of a foul when I toss my flag. I reserve my second bean bag for the end of the kick if I need it.

I was looking in the AHSAA mechanics guide and they offer no additional guidance for multiple spots of first touching. They do note "if bean bag falls on wrong yard line, after the play is over, immediately move it to the correct yard line."

Jeff, I did not attack you. I did not insult you. I've always treated you with respect. I expect the same respect in return.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but when you say you're only marking 2 spots it makes it difficult to comprehend.

Assume a punt is grounded at R's 10. K1 bats the ball at R's 2. The batted ball hits K2 at R's 8. The ball rolls out of bounds at R's 4.

Can you tell me where you're dropping your bean bags and what options are offered to R?

Why are we still trying to wrestle this greased pig? He WILL NOT answer your question because he knows he was blatantly wrong. He will respond to your question with something like, "Walt - how can you not know the answer to this." followed by an insult to you, a bit of ego-bluster or resume-spewing, and a comment that he doesn't have to help you understand what you couldn't possibly understand. He'll probably yell at you for not knowing the 10 is irrelevant even though you never said it was.

HE KNOWS HE WAS WRONG. That is why he won't answer this directly. He's simply sitting in his mother's basement, getting excited about how much he's stirred things up. Thus, Jeff has landed in troll-landia.

This teaches me who I should and should not ask when requesting enlightenment regarding FED rules.

No because it's obvious they will take the best first touching spot over the dead ball spot. That's not what we are discussing here. You are saying the only first touching spot is the first one and that's not the case. It could be the second or third one if they exist.

JRut is actually very knowledgable about Fed rules so I would say he's someone you could rely on most of the time. He either firmly believes the subsequent touching by K are not spots of first touching or he is afraid to admit he was originally mistaken. I don't care which it is.

I believe that ... which is exactly why I asked him to clarify something that seemed off to me - and got ridiculed for it. And then when other Fedlandians pipe in, I learn he was exactly wrong about the thing that felt wrong to me. And I got resume-beaten and ridiculed some more. Why would I go back for more of that?

REPLY: mbcrowder, just for the record and as most others have said, the Fed "first touching" rules are virtually identical to the NCAA "illegal touching" rules that you know with one exception regarding how R's first/illegal touching rights can be cancelled. But yes...any and all spots where K touches a scrimmage kick prior to R touching are indeed "relevant" and each may become the succeeding spot--just like in NCAA. Whether you mark them with bean bags, hats, shoes, or jock straps, you better know which is the most advantageous to R once the play ends. Any idea that only the initial first/illegal touching spot and the dead ball spot are relevant and only one of those two spots will qualify as the succeeding spot is pure hogwash.

I haven't visited this board since June, and probably wouldn't have tuned in tonight either except that posters on another board told me I just had to read this if I wanted a good laugh before going to bed. This thread reminds me once again why I've stayed away. Now I'm certain I'll be ridiculed and insulted for this post, and I just hope that whoever might choose to do that asks to compare FB resumes with me.

I will not answer your questions because I answered it a long time ago and I do not have to. You do you think you are Ron O'Neal or something? ;)

Peace

Why don't you be a man and bring your behind to where I am. Then talk to me about what I am doing or saying. Do that then we can talk about what I am wrong about. Are you scared to do that, or are you going to hide behind a little name because you do not have the balls to say it to my face?

I will be waiting?

Peace

Well I am not going to do that. If you want to do that, fine. If you need to do that, fine. I only have so many bean bags and it is not hard to determine what spot is going to be used. I only care three bean bags and one is in my pocket if I misplace or cannot go pick up the other one in a timely manner (rare).

Again, I have a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. It is not that hard to figure out which those are. Never had a problem in my entire career, I do not think this conversation is going to change that.

Do you; do not worry about what others do. I learned to pick up pennies a long time ago. This is one I will leave on the ground.

Peace

Interesting... just had a long talk last night with my 7th grader about not lowering himself to the level of the kid who pretty much said the same thing to him.

This board can't get enough about the topic of touching...whether it is the phrase "is touching" or "first touching"....

Why does my wife/girlfriend want me to touch her Volvo? :confused:

Where's the moderator with the lock when you need him?

Either to wash it or change the oil is my guess.

I also learned the unsuccessful people do things that successful people do not do. I will let you figure out how that plays out in this conversation. So you go on worrying about what I think of this. ;)

Peace

BTW, STOP SENDING ME PM'S ABOUT THIS STUPID TOPIC!!!! I WILL JUST DELETE THEM FROM THIS POINT ON.

Peace

Yeah, successful people can recognize and admit mistakes to correct the problem. Idiots like you can't and just keep making them over and over. In the real world that's usually just unfortunate for you. On the football field, it's unfortunate for the game.
And I notice you still can't address the question and instead resort to some sort of comical threat. Truly, truly pathetic.

As predicted.

Actually he did address the issue.

He stated that touches between the time of the "first" first-touching and when the ball becomes dead "are not relevant".

He's wrong. He'll never admit it.

Time to move on from this one, in due time..... he'll do it again.....

...... and deny it again......

Not that this even applies here, but this is the kind of crap that kept me off of here for over a year. I led off a discussion about black pants two years ago and got lambasted about how dumb they were...yada yada. Now half the officials before too long here will be wearing them in lousy weather or cold conditions soon.

Guys come here for some discussion on things they've seen and dealt with and it turns into a pi$$ing match because an ego or two get chapped. For the sake of an argument...I'd bet almost anyone here working longer than a few years could watch the rest of us work and take up some sort of issue on their hustle, mechanics, positions at the snap, etc.

You guys sound like a bunch of ladies *****ing at each other on The View.

As we've all seen, having a ton of years in as an official does make a great official. Tooting your own horn about how good you are is classic....if you were that good you wouldn't be on here. You'd be on your way to wherever you're working this weekend.

Talk to my patch (two of them as well).

Then ask me how successful I am. ;)

Peace

Dude ... now you're just a comic book character.

I discuss these things like I discuss politics. They are fun and interesting, but never changes the core feelings I have as those are developed in other ways. If you come here looking to get something more out of this place from people you will never meet and people you will never work with, you are doing yourself a disservice in my opinion. There should be trainings and meetings in your area that should shape your feelings on anything. After all, the local people you will have to work for and deal with on a daily basis. I come here strictly for entertainment, no other reason. Those reason were dispelled a very long time ago.

Peace

And you are a clown who does not know the difference between what you do and what others do. ;)

Peace

And Cue Benny Hill!

YouTube - Benny Hill Theme

Aaaahhh... the sweet sounds of sanity. Should have done this yesterday.

"The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead."


Still no explanation regarding your incorrect answer above. Maybe you can use those 2 patches to cover up your mistake.

Silly man ... those aren't patches... they are the beanbags you failed to drop.

guess whose back, back again, Jinx is back tell some B.......

Wow I got back just in time to see Rut runnin' his flap jack, last time I saw you Rut you were bein' a "Pioneer", how did that work for you? If your a man, be a man & say either you were wrong or the way you expressed yourself was wrong. If you have "only" a first touching spot & a dead ball spot you should clarify it for us. Since your the guy with the "patches" help out the lowly masses. Tell us how you would work the bag, what you would do. The whole point is funny to everyone because they know your wrong. Try & bring it to me, cuz your not better then ME, your not close to being on my level as a back judge or a football official in general. Your runnin your mouth in front of the w.... people & making B.... people look bad. Quiet your mouth, write you messed up a little explaining what you wanted to say & move. We can meet anywhere you want, I'll be in Joliet this weekend. You can't bring it to me, on here or on the field.

It must have worked out fine because that was the year I got those patches a few weeks later. ;) I said exactly what I wanted to say, all those spots are irrelevant to me. They do not mean anything because it is not hard to figure out which is the dead ball spot and compare that to the first touching spot we are going to use. I guess unless you have no field awareness or game awareness this might be difficult. I even learned a long time ago to figure out the first down spot without having to look at the sticks. If I can do that it is not hard to decide what spot to use. I know I am not alone in that at all, because officials greater than me taught me to do that.

I asked a person on my crew tonight that also worked a State Final with me and is the rules guy on our crew. We had a game tonight because of the Jewish Holiday and this was talked about in our pregame. He often will get into rules discussions with us and give his opinion. And when our crew chief sends out emails with rules and situations, he almost always responds and gives a through explanation. So if I was wrong he would tell me that is what he thought. I asked him directly several situations of different first touching spots. I did not tell him about this conversation or the context, I just asked him what would he do and how would you handle it. He did at first say he would mark all those spots, but then when he thought about it, he said, "If I do all of that, I will not have the spot for the end of the kick or the end of the related run that could occur." He even talked briefly about throwing his hat, but then said to me "Why?" Because he realized that they are not going to take the ball at the other spots anyway and the other spots would be more important. I did not direct him in any direction or try to tell him what I would do.

The conversation only took a couple of minutes. BTW he is a college official as well.

Sorry, not taking back a single word. I stand by what I said. And if you did not get it the first time, all those spots are irrelevant to me. There is a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. The furthest most spot for first touching is going to be used and I do not need to bag every single spot. And the vast majority of first touching spots are clearly identifiable. Better yet, I would not have bags for every spot even if I wanted to. I only take three and I have yet to use all three on a single play even with a first touching spots. I stand by what I say, call me wrong but that is what I am going to do. Do you!!!

Peace

A legend in his own mind.

Thank you. I'll accept this as an admission that you agree the second and subsequent spots could also be spots of first touching and the only one that matters is the one that benefits R the most. That is the only one that truly needs a bean bag or some reference to location.

I'll give him a 9.8 on the landing. It took a while but he figured out how to give the correct answer without sounding like his first answer was wrong. Very adroit.

This song is appropriate.

YouTube - Sidestep - Charles Durning - The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.mp4

Yes he made it.


Rut riddle me this?:

In the senerio we have where its touched at the 2 (you throw your bag) then the ball hits another K player at the 8 & then R picks up the ball at the 6 & starts running, & returns it to 80 yards. Are you going to drop a second bag or just remember the spot of the 8 in case they fumble & have to go back to that spot? Or are you just gonna stand at the 8 while the play goes on?

..... and on the 7th day, the spots became relevant..... :rolleyes:

You are better than me right. Then you do not need my answer. Oh, but you are in Joliet tonight. :)

Peace

How is this any different from what I said at the beginning?

This is the quote of what I said.

I am trying to figure out what else did I say that was different? Very first response to the question from the OPer (who still has not commented once in this thread).
Peace

Jeff, mbcrowder said

to which you replied

Only now you say

Which I think most of us agree is not only correct (except maybe the bagging bit) but not what you said originally.

But I was told that the bagging bit was wrong too by several people. I simply used a rulebook term and was even criticized for doing that by someone because the OPer did not understand the term as they were not football official as well.

I even had two people PM me because they think I agree with them, but I did not use the language they wanted to hear to make them happy. Comical on so many levels.

This is why I cannot, will not or refuse to worry about what people here say because if I did I would be paralyzed with not commenting on anything. Please stop saying what everyone would do or say when you cannot even get right what we “disagreed” on. It does not work when I used to say it; it is not going to work now. I do what the people around me do and approve not what some people I will never work with or deal with in my officiating. Even the guy that is in Joliet (as if I would care).

Peace

Hmmm...